Having children to take care of you in old age

[ThatsNotMyCherry]

I want to know how to articulate why this is is wrong.

In recent years as her kids have flown the nest my mum has started going on about this a lot. She’s always saying how parents do so much for their children when they’re young so it’s their children’s duty to do the same when they’re old. I think she believes that in every relationship you should get back as much as you put in. She’s been a housewife her whole life and in recent years does a fair bit of care for her own mother. She tells me about people she knows who are unwell but their kids are busy working and raising their own families. Obviously neglecting your parents when they’re old isn’t right but people have their own lives and are entitled to live them. I think part of the problem may be that she’s never had a life outside of caring. When I tell her I don’t expect this from my children and want them to have their own happy, fulfilled lives she says I will only understand when they grow up, leave and then need them.

To me there’s a difference between providing care ie personal care, which I think is a professional job and helping your family eg taking them shopping, visiting for company etc which I think does fall to family in a perfect world. Elderly people will require the more low level informal ‘care’ for many more years than they require professional care.

I'm not great at explaining what I think about this, but here goes. I don't have any kids of my own and have been called selfish for it, but I feel that having children is the selfish thing to do, its what you want after all, so it's only right that you then let your children live their own lives. Let them fly, so to speak. Expecting them to care for you is incredibly selfish.

Kids don’t choose to be born that’s the parents choice. Kids can move to the other side of the world, or just the other end of the country, may have health issues themselves or there may have been family conflict. To expect your kids to take care of you may be unrealistic in many cases (and is defo not a reason to have kids in the first place). Children should not be make to feel guilty if they can’t step up all the time, everyone has their own life to live

Well my mum thinks that children who move abroad if their parents are getting old are selfish

Is your mum, my mum .

I would say old people are in fact the selfish ones. There are obviously very many sweet, compliant, non-complaining elderly folk, but sadly IME and that of my friends of similar ages they are mostly a pain in proverbial. We are all in our 50's, with children, our parents all in their 80's or 90's. Most of these elderly are women, most of whom didn't work, and didn't have to look after their own mothers as they had already died. My mum "retired" at 50 with my dad, and pissed off round the world, leaving me aged 16 to look after the house and the cat. Sore point, that now she expects me to look after her, and is very critical of all children who move away, or live abroad.

No previous generations have had both children and very elderly parents to look after. It is only going to get worse.

@Verily1 - I can see that's the case, but that is the stuff that does require someone to be available in the week day. Realistically, if you are getting in from work at 6-7pm, and need to eat, it's not practical to be going back out to take an elderly parent to the supermarket. Visits for company need you to be about to do it. Weekends are an option, but that's often not enough, and rather unfair on DCs if rathe than getting their parents' attention, they are running around after a grandparent.

This is the real issue with woman working - it means we're not there to do this stuff anymore. which pushes older people towards a crisis point earlier than they would be if they did have a daughter or daughter in law popping in every other day for half an hour or so.

This was flagged up to us recently, DH had a couple of days off during this half term (I work term time only) and we arranged to meet PIL for lunch. This was the first time we'd got to see them since Christmas as either DH was working at the weekends or the DCs had parties/events. When I didn't work and DC2 was pre-school, I made sure I popped over every other week at least or meet MIL for a coffee near us (they live about 40 mins away). We are going to have to make an effort to keep time for them on weekends, but realistically, the idea that we could do the regular popping in without one of us giving up work isn't an option.

These old paradigms are long gone and need to change. People live much longer on the whole with more complex health and care needs that cost more, the pension age is greater so more people need to work longer, cost of living has gone up and up whilst wages have stagnated so often people need to work FT even in couples, plenty of people have to move for work (and you see this a lot in society, can't get a decent job where you are, can't afford the rent, too bad, you need to move).

You can't have it both ways, the little woman doing the caring but also expected to work FT as well.

Personally, I'd like to see assisted suicide an option. Can't think of many who want to develop advanced dementia.

Some fascinating views here. I think @SuperFurryDoggy hit the nail on the head re wondering if people who observe others aging are able to better at aging themselves.

My mum had no role in caring for her parents or in-laws and is very difficult now - refuses repeatedly steps we put in place to care for her then changes her mind 9 months later so we go through the whole rigmarole again. Has not looked after herself so minor ailments have become bigger issues rendering her housebound. Wants me to visit but ignores me when I do make the 6 hour round trip, and the list of frustrations goes on. Yes getting older is not fun and it can be humiliating but it happens to us all so why not try to accept it and make the process less horrible for everyone.

I think it was @MatildaTheCat that also pointed out that people can change in old age to become needy in an unpleasant way - in my experience that can also include manipulative and spiteful behaviour. We might think when our parents are younger that of course it is right to look after them in old age but when they change to become nasty and wilfully helpless, it’s sometimes better to get third party carers to handle this and head off that behaviour.

A bit rambley, but I guess what I’m saying is that while in principle I agree it’s right to look after our aged parents, quite often those people we are caring for make life so bloody difficult that you have to wonder if it’s worth it, especially if you want to protect your own mental well-being.

And I’m saving like mad into my pension now and fully intend to pay for my own care to the fullest extent possible. I would not want any DC (if I have them) to have to bear that burden - it is a burden and it is a heavy one.

I moved abroad, when my mum became terminally ill I gave up my job and moved home to care for her. I don’t regret it and don’t see that I could possibly have done anything else - but that’s because of me, my relationship with my mum and my circumstances at the time (was single, no children of my own). I considered the time I got to spend with her before she died a blessing and could take some comfort in my grief from knowing I did the best I could for her. My mum didn’t expect it or demand it or anything like that, but no way on earth I could have just sat there on the other side of the world and just hoped my siblings would deal with it.

On the other hand my IL’s currently provide care for DH’s gran, FIL’s mother. Physically she’s fairly fit and independent but she has no idea about finances, bills, home upkeep etc so they take care of all that, do shopping, cleaning, home maintenance etc. She lives a fair drive from them in a big house that requires a lot of upkeep she’s not able for, flatly refuses to move and gets very upset if she doesn’t see them all weekend every weekend and at least 2 days a week. She won’t accept carers going in and has no other family or friends. It has had an enormous impact on their life and really restricts the freedom they should be enjoying in their retirement. DH and I cover where we can, but I know MIL is quite resentful at times and I’m sure I would be in similar circumstances. My in laws are thankfully in good health and only ever really ask for IT support, ‘can you look at my phone’ type things, or the odd lift with moving things or whatever. I’ve not put much thought into what will happen as they start to need more support. Part of me kind of feels I’ve done my caring bit (was also I suppose what would be called a ‘young carer’ at times in my teens) and reluctant to commit to it again. I suppose my feeling is that I’d support DH to support his parents but would resist it all falling to me because I’m the woman.

Personally, I'd like to see assisted suicide an option.

That’s my plan. I don’t want to get to a point where I’m unable to wipe my own backside and go out on my own without supervision and need my adult children or a stranger to take care of me.

Some women of her generation basically feel like women are there to care for children and elderly people and have no right to a life of their own. She can think that all she likes but you don't have to agree with her.

It is a far-from-uncommon outlook for people of her generation, to see it as a duty and a 'right' that they can go on to expect from their own daughters - but what do they do if they don't have children or if they outlive their children? I wonder if they feel the same if they only have sons, who maybe don't go on to marry, so there aren't even any DILs to rope in.

It was maybe more understandable in a time when, although expected to look after the young and the old, women were released from the responsibility of having to financially support the family. Not great for personal freedom and equal rights, but at least you weren't continually pulled both ways - family and paid employment.

Of course, it's lovely to be there and visit and help out your parents as they get older, where feasible, but having the full-time responsibility of caring for them is just not sustainable, especially as it often falls when you have young children yourself.

Does anybody else remember the thread from a little while ago where the OP's MIL made it abundantly clear to her adult children that, as she had made sacrifices and brought them up as children, she now expected a generous 'salary' in return from them for the rest of her life? It wasn't even so she could pay her rent or gas and electricity bills etc - she liked the finer things in life and expected to be 'paid' so that she could buy herself all of the lovely treats she believed she deserved, having earned them by being a mother of once-young children.

Meanwhile, OP's own children were having to go without anything more than the basics, as hundreds of pounds of their family money was being claimed and taken away as soon as it was earned.

I agree with a PP about Wanted Down Under, though. Although you want your children to grow up and make their own way in the world, without standing in their way, I would be devastated if my son eventually decided to emigrate to Australia or New Zealand. Even if you do enjoy good health and have plenty of money to pay for air fares, you aren't realistically going to see each other that often. The likelihood is that, whilst time is on your side and health and funds allow, you'll have to factor your very limited amount of annual leave into the mix; and when you're retired and finally have the free time, the money and good health will soon start to dry up.

Forgetting any 'caring' needs, but just from a pov of family spending time together, if you live in the same country (well, a relatively small country like the UK at least), you might see each other once a week (if local), once every month or so (if further afield), maybe a few times a year (if a lot further away). If you stop and think about things realistically, with one side in Europe and the other in the Antipodes, you can probably count on the fingers of both (maybe even one) hands how many more times you're going to see them before you die. You'll never really get to know your grandchildren well (unless they're already born and significantly older before they leave).

Seeing the mutual joy between my DS and his two living DGPs of having each other in their lives, and then thinking about the other two who died long before he was born, I can't personally see why anybody would actively choose that separation - but each to their own, and I know not everybody is fortunate enough to have a close loving family.

Someone mentioned above how women working has changed things. I think this is very true. I was really pushed to work hard and have a career because my mum hated being a stay at home mum but now that she’s started to think about old age and possible care needs (because of how much time she spend with her own mother) she suddenly thinks it’s a bad idea for women to work.

Parents outliving their children is indeed becoming more and more common.

The burden of caring meaning the carer dies before the care recipient is also common, especially with spouse carers but also with women in their late 60s and early 70s doing hard core 24/7 care for a very elderly parent - the parent finally goes into a home for their last six months of life because their adult child carer has died.

This the real issue with woman working - it means we're not there to do this stuff anymore. which pushes older people towards a crisis point earlier than they would be if they did have a daughter or daughter in law popping in every other day for half an hour or so

I find this attitude the real issue, bemoaning the fact that women no longer make their wants and needs secondary to everyone else's.

This was the thread about the MIL expecting to be financially supported by her adult children. I remembered slightly wrongly: it was the OP's sister's MIL and not her own.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3654109-should-parents-be-paid-back-for-sacrifices-they-made-when-raising-their-children

I don’t think people should be giving up their whole lives to care for elderly parents but I do think far too many older people are left with nothing more than a cursory phone call once a week from the people that are supposed to love them. I worked with elderly people in the community and the loneliness you see is heartbreaking.

However, I think it’s often men who need to step up to the plate more. More times than I can count I’ve seen an elderly person supported day to day by their daughter or daughter in law or sister or female neighbour, while their son pops in once a month and gets treated like the golden child.

I’ve no expectation of that. I would quite like being in a home!

I can understand your mother feeling this way, (feelings are irrational). It's quite another for her to bring it up with you and make passive-aggressive digs about your perceived lack of care.

The fact is even low level care like shopping,taking to appointments,calling a few times a week can feel relentless when it's for years and years.And now multiplied by 2 as a relative who never had children,or had to care for her parents,now has DH as next of kin and on call.It's not their fault they are in their 90s.It's not their fault their parents died much younger,or after a short illness and they did none of this.But it is their fault if they don't want anyone but family to help out.I don't mind admitting I feel increasingly resentful.

Meant it's not their fault they are in their 90s !

This the real issue with woman working - it means we're not there to do this stuff anymore. which pushes older people towards a crisis point earlier than they would be if they did have a daughter or daughter in law popping in every other day for half an hour or so

Why not the son or son in law?

I like the distinction between looking after and looking out for, too.

But there are a lot of things that don't have to be done day to day by relatives. Both MIL and my aunt used to go to their respective mothers daily as they lived round the corner, and took around meals every day. That is a large commitment in itself and I'm sure it was very wearing. But nowadays you could potentially pay a cleaner to go in and clean the house and do the laundry, and use M&S ready meals if you had the money. The visits and companionship are one thing, but there's no need for relatives to cook every day like MIL and my aunt did.

MIL is now bedridden and has in-home care. But that only works because SIL lives around the corner, is retired and has no dependents, so can go in and eg do the laundry as the carers don't do that. I guess if DIL wasn't available she would be in a home.

I will care for my parents when they're old out of love for them, not out of a sense of duty.

So I personally wouldn't move abroad etc if they needed me. However, I don't think it's a duty - some people have difficult relationships with their parents, etc. Some people may have parents who had them very late and so need looking after at the same time as very young children. I think it's personal to everyone.

In the old days or in traditional cultures things were very different, there were fewer elderly people and they weren't as elderly
There were also more women not in paid employment who could be made to feel that they ought to to sacrifice their time and energy to do whatever caring work needed to be done.
But now in modern times in a modern culture I'm in my mid 50s I have adult children who still need my support, they are my priority, well actually no I am my priority I look after number one first and then my children am I supposed to also be a carer until I am 70 or 80 for my elderly parents??
Sod that I want to relax and enjoy my life, not be someone else's drudge.
These are my golden years, when my parents were my age both their parents had died so were out of the way and not causing anyone any problems, they were free to do whatever they wanted because I was also off their hands.
they had a lovely old time going on lots of adventure holidays, now they're starting to get health problems and they can't do all the adventuring they're trying to reel me and make me their personal servant 😳

I wonder if those saying they will go into a home have seen what most homes are like these days in Britain? And if you have state help toward it, you will not go into one anyway until things are pretty bad.

I also gave a hollow laugh when someone posted about how the standards of care have improved so much since families used to do it. My FIL had paid carers coming in. Initially paid for by him, but it is expensive, and the money ran out. With state funded carers an improvement would have been them making sure he was always fed and clean. We visited very regularly. We found him asleep in a chair at midday because no one had been to put him to bed in the evening, or in the morning. Carers sometimes not coming so he went unfed and not cleaned.

If you are relying on paying for care, unless you are very wealthy or very lucky, you will have issues.

She won’t accept carers going in and has no other family or friends. It has had an enormous impact on their life and really restricts the freedom they should be enjoying
this is such a common story, people who won't accept professional help preferring instead relatives who are easier to guilt trip and manipulate... it's all a power game🙄

they had a lovely old time going on lots of adventure holidays, now they're starting to get health problems and they can't do all the adventuring they're trying to reel me and make me their personal servant 😳

Do not get sucked into this or your life will become a misery. I've seen it happen time and again, have friends who have become infirm themselves under teh strain of entitled parents on top of their still having to work FT to support their own families.