Having children to take care of you in old age

[ThatsNotMyCherry]

I want to know how to articulate why this is is wrong.

In recent years as her kids have flown the nest my mum has started going on about this a lot. She’s always saying how parents do so much for their children when they’re young so it’s their children’s duty to do the same when they’re old. I think she believes that in every relationship you should get back as much as you put in. She’s been a housewife her whole life and in recent years does a fair bit of care for her own mother. She tells me about people she knows who are unwell but their kids are busy working and raising their own families. Obviously neglecting your parents when they’re old isn’t right but people have their own lives and are entitled to live them. I think part of the problem may be that she’s never had a life outside of caring. When I tell her I don’t expect this from my children and want them to have their own happy, fulfilled lives she says I will only understand when they grow up, leave and then need them.

@Alsohuman I was not talking about your mum. Why are you attacking me. I have said nothing about your mum at all.
Of course some people are ready to die and I said my father was. And others who need a lot of help get a lot of pleasure out of life.

@Connie222

I don’t understand why you are having this happen a second time. Can’t you escape? If not, why not?

@UYScuti I am not English. I understand totally why someone would not do the 24-hour care of looking after a relative that needs a lot of help. And as has been said in many other cultures now paid carers come into the family home to provide help.
I don't understand those who abandon their parents and do no more than visit elderly, frail and ill parents once or twice a year - assuming they have not been abusive. Obviously different if they have.

I do find it hard to understand the extreme individualisation in England that means people get annoyed if their parents do not help with childcare, but refuse to do anything to help their elderly parents. I know not all English families are like this. But you can have a halfway house of paid carers and family. With my father we all work and have children. Paid carers went in every day, and every weekend day one family member visited him. We did a rota so it reduced the burden, but meant he got visitors and some extra help every weekend.

Any home anyone is thinking of putting a loved one in, you cannot possibly know just how good it is until you work in it.

Also remember it takes one bad apple to make a loved ones life a misery.
The only way to know how good the home is, is to get in and work there.

Once the relative is in, do unannounced drop ins.

Everyone should work in one really and also do time on dementia wards.

Unfortunately people live in ignorant bliss until its too late for them and their family whilst the person declines. They are then left exposed and vulnerable in care, they can't articulate or tell anyone if they are happy and they become just as vulnerable as new born babies.

There is no way I want to be that vulnerable and put into a care home and we need legislation so I can say that now in middle age.

There is no point for me to continue living if I don't know my loved ones anymore and can't do basic things for myself. And there is no way I want mine and dh hard won money being squandered to fund '' care '' that I don't want.

People who want to choose to carry on, in those circumstances will be there business.

@janemaster
Yes but it also essentially punishes the elderly person for not wanting to go into a care home. They would have to make the choice between "Dignitas and leave nothing of my life savings to my family" or "Care home and debilitation eventually but my family get what I want them to get". That's not fair on them.

personally I prefer life in the modern technologically advanced culture

Fair enough. I generally believe adult children should look after their parents wherever and however possible and that to refuse to do so for no good reason is ungrateful.

Which is weird for me bevause I do see having children as an inherently selfish thing to do in the first place.

@Cherrysoup because I’m an only child and he’s very difficult.

Answering without RTFT so I imagine it’s already been said, but in my view my children didn’t ask to be born, they didn’t choose to exist. I as their parent owe them care, love and nurturing. They owe me nothing. Of course I would love to think that we will always be close and that I won’t feel alone in my old age, but on the other hand I do not know what cards life will deal them, and ultimately my only wish is that they are happy, contented and lead a positive life. They are under absolutely no obligation to look after me. I, on the other hand, had every obligation to look after them when they were children and now when they are young adults.

Adult children should look after their parents however and whenever possible
but what exactly does that mean, how much suffering and sacrifice should the adult child endure for the sake of the parent, are we to exhaust ourselves and ruin our health completely so that we don't even get a chance to live to the age our parents did?
50s 60s 70s used to be thought of as the chance for some golden years but now it seems we have to spend them toiling and enslaved to the needs of the frail elderly in the generation above us.
This is so often framed as a quid pro quo something we must do to pay our parents back for caring for us as children but the situations are not remotely analogous

@UYScuti I agree with your general point. But in the past for many women the 50s, 60s and 70s were spent caring, not some mythical golden years. Normally for parents and grandchildren.

Well...(attempting to play devil's advocate) both of my parents spent their 50s 60s and 70s free of responsibilities, I was completely off of their hands and made no demands on them their parents had already passed away quite quickly
therefore I deserve the same, I am now my 50s and I think I deserve the same freedoms that my parents had, if they don't agree tough shit, ain't nothing they can do

How does that not fit the definition of playing devil's advocate?

50s 60s 70s used to be thought of as the chance for some golden years but now it seems we have to spend them toiling and enslaved to the needs of the frail elderly in the generation above us.

In the past people would die of old age type illnesses in their sixties so people would be giving care well into their forties (which again was considered old and many people had age related illnesses). Care was also very physically demanding and needed the whole family to pitch in.

Nowadays all people really need to do to care for their parents at home is sort out home care, food, washing (if they are incontinent it requires and manage the medication / carers that come in to do the toileting. This isn’t easy admittedly but it isn’t physically demanding. Carers even do overnights so the rest of the family can go on holiday (if the parent can’t travel). Plenty of people in their 50-70s are having their golden years, travelling, whilst providing home care for their parents or other relatives. But they need good incomes (again I have seen it’s possible for care providers to work in a good job and care provided the whole family pitches in) / the support of their families to do that. The problem isn’t that there is more elderly; the problem is that society doesn’t want to care for their elderly relatives and is expecting the state to step into an arena they shouldn’t need to be.

The problem isn’t that there is more elderly; the problem is that society doesn’t want to care for their elderly relatives and is expecting the state to step into an arena they shouldn’t need to be

I think it’s both. People are living far longer, debatably too long. And, yes, the concept of helping out (not care in its true sense) seems to be disappearing. We’re in the process of future proofing but there’s a limit to how much you can do that.

I find this thread fascinating.

As a childfree person I just can't imagine putting a guilt trip on anyone to provide my physical care. I have heard the 'who will look after you in your old age' and think it's very selfish to have children as an insurance policy for old age.

I disagree with the idea that because someone needs their bum wiped their life is worthless.

Who actually said that or eluded to it?

For some people, that would be a major loss of dignity and they would feel worthless even if others didn’t feel/see it that way. As said before, people have different thresholds when it comes to what they perceive as quality of life and how much care they actually want once they are of a certain age or circumstance.

And the home care system is set up with the expectation that families still help out. c. So carers not doing washing of clothes for example. Same with elderly people in hospital for a long time. Families are expected to do washing of clothes, bring in treats, magazines, book, etc. Or relatives in care homes, you are still expected to sort out buying their clothes, manage finances, etc.

Nowadays all people really need to do to care for their parents at home is sort out home care, food, washing (if they are incontinent it requires and manage the medication / carers that come in to do the toileting. This isn’t easy admittedly but it isn’t physically demanding.

Are you having a laugh? Ever cared for someone with advanced dementia? They often do not sleep, at all, and can be mobile and violent and physically strong, refuse care/toileting/medication. Care work is extremely physically demanding.

Bear, I really hope you don't cave to your MIL! Do not endanger yourself. Your DH 'does what he can' but you were expecting to do 100% more? I have a friend in this situation with his father. My friend was 62 when he had a stroke and all his father could do was grouse about how he'd have to use his bus pass now. With his son lying in ICU!

@Connie222 but that doesn’t mean you have to let him ruin a second marriage! Tough on him if he’s difficult. Does he own a property that he can sell to fund a care home? There’s no way I’d allow a parent to ruin my relationship. What’s stopping you going nc, bar the guilt?

And the home care system is set up with the expectation that families still help out. c. So carers not doing washing of clothes for example

That’s why you employ a cleaner. Basically you outsource everything you possibly can because the stuff you have to do is plenty.

Nowadays all people really need to do to care for their parents at home is sort out home care, food, washing (if they are incontinent it requires and manage the medication / carers that come in to do the toileting. This isn’t easy admittedly but it isn’t physically demanding

I'd just like to highlight the ALL part. None of those things above are easy, especially if the parent doesnt want any of them, would prefer to have the 'daughter round the corner' do them. And of course that person also has their own life to live, own life admin to do. Chuck a DH, some kids, a job into the mix - it's not isnt easy admittedly it's a fucking crisis most of the time.

Never underestimate the mental load of caring.

Never underestimate the mental load of caring

God yes. I didn’t know what to do with all the spare head space when it came to an end.