Having children to take care of you in old age

[ThatsNotMyCherry]

I want to know how to articulate why this is is wrong.

In recent years as her kids have flown the nest my mum has started going on about this a lot. She’s always saying how parents do so much for their children when they’re young so it’s their children’s duty to do the same when they’re old. I think she believes that in every relationship you should get back as much as you put in. She’s been a housewife her whole life and in recent years does a fair bit of care for her own mother. She tells me about people she knows who are unwell but their kids are busy working and raising their own families. Obviously neglecting your parents when they’re old isn’t right but people have their own lives and are entitled to live them. I think part of the problem may be that she’s never had a life outside of caring. When I tell her I don’t expect this from my children and want them to have their own happy, fulfilled lives she says I will only understand when they grow up, leave and then need them.

There’s no point in keeping people alive for the hell of it when their quality of life has gone. I’d far, far rather die than live the way my poor mum did in her last years

Who decides what is "quality of life" ???
What if the patient is mentally impaired? the Doctors tasked with now being "God" ? Relatives who would rather spend the inheritance on themselves than on care? or the Govt?
Perhaps it could be decided by age or wealth?

I watched my Mum decline, she would often say she wanted to die but then she'd have a lovely day out or see a particular bird in the garden and life was then good.
Her final illness was a different matter, i'd rather she had not suffered but even then, she could experience joy at seeing her GC.

Killing her off? where do you stop? Politicians could easily start using euthanasia as an excuse to save money, after all they don't care about the deaths that have occured under changes to DLA, the introduction of UC or the complete lack of MH services, iDS wants us to all work until we are 75.. wont be quite so many elderly to worry about then.

I helped my mum with support during her many years of illness but I didn't provide physical care as I was hundreds of miles away and plus neither of us would have wanted that.

When people talk about care and how they will definitely provide it for their parents when needed I suspect are thinking of the niceties of visiting, taking them shopping, tidying etc. They aren't thinking of moving physically incapacitated people into the bath and out again, dealing with significant dementia and behavioural changes, changing dressings and all the other things that 'caring' for someone might bring.

I chose not to have children so the expectation is mute. Instead I have a house that is accessible and easily adapted. We may move again but if we did then we need to be on public transport routes, in a bungalow and within reach of a hospital by public transport or taxi. All practical things for getting older. I have always planned for old age in terms of pensions to pay for general help and care in the home and if I need to go in an actual care home then yes I fully expect my savings and home to be used to fund that as much a possible until I have no more and then I will be in the same situation as people with no savings relying on the state. I do sometimes worry about no one watching out for me being scammed when I am older but I can't do anything about that and would hope my IFA who manages my investments now and will continue to do so in my old age would flag that up to adult social services if I was being financially manipulated.

Who decides what is "quality of life" ???
What if the patient is mentally impaired? the Doctors tasked with now being "God" ? Relatives who would rather spend the inheritance on themselves than on care? or the Govt?
Perhaps it could be decided by age or wealth?

Quality of life is an individual thing obviously. There’s always these what ifs when it comes to assisted suicide. Who are we to tell people that they should stay alive because we disagree on what quality of life is and means to us.

Why are we as a society so fearful of death?

The Swiss have made it work and put something in place. We have panels of doctors that decide, diagnose problems and plan treatments, yet it is seemingly out of the realm of possibility to do the same for those who wish to die.

The Swiss system is about people having capacity to decide at the point of deciding to commit suicide. You must be able to take the drugs yourself. Nobody without full capacity can act. Nobody unable to self administer can act. Dementia would rule out Dignitas.

I think the fearful of death is why people call for euthanasia to be legalised when they mean murder. It’s the fear of death that makes pedant it to be neat and tidy. Assisted suicide and euthanasia are not the same thing at all.

In Switzerland very few people use the legislation to take their own lives. It’s about 750 a year.

I also think the whole keeping people alive business is tosh. Certainly medical staff are usually kind enough to know that death is close but it’s the families who struggle to accept this and demand ‘everything is done’. The exceptions are doctors who’ve overstepped the mark and murdered eg Shipman.

People are living longer. They are more frail for longer. It rarely means no quality of life before the very end. There are some fabulous care homes that give loving care and where life is made enjoyable.

I think all of you trivilising death will probably change your minds sharpish when it’s your time. Killing elderly people so they don’t need to receive care from their families / the state is not the answer. And if it is the cost of that killing should be the entirety of their estate - children should not to be allowed to inherit under these circumstances.

Speaking of inheritance...I wonder how many of you who don’t provide care to non-parental relatives would expect to claim their assets? I find that really unfair really - that extended family will say no to caring but then expect the estate even when the will leaves it to the people doing the caring.

There are some fabulous care homes that give loving care and where life is made enjoyable.

Chances are none of these places would be affordable to anyone who either isn’t super rich or has nothing. The people in the middle are often squeezed for every penny they have by the care industry. In many cases it would actually cheaper to put the elderly into a 5 star hotel in India / China / Spain and pay for nurses / carers.

DH is Asian and neither of his parents are particularly well. We live in the UK and they don't. There is an unspoken expectation from their children (DH and his brother) that they'll be taken care of in the near future. It's never been put into so many words but BIL wasn't going to stay in the family home after he got married.... now his huge plans have changed, both he and his wife now live there and FIL is placated (for now). Although I'm told there was never a conversation which went "well who will look after US??", I'm positive that there have been undertones to this effect over the years.

MIL on the other hand, who incidentally is far less healthy / mobile etc, is more than happy for DH to have his own life, live in the UK and raise his family here. This could perhaps stem from FIL having his own mother at home until she passed away.

I wouldn't expect the same from my DC, I didn't give birth to set up an insurance policy for when I'm old and infirm - I had children because I wanted children. They deserve their own lives and I hope they'll do what makes them happy, not me happy.

I did care for one parent in old age and would happily help my other parent.

I don't want my daughter to feel obliged to care for me. I hope she'd want to help a bit if she happened to live nearby and had time.

I do think children should make an effort to visit and keep in very regular contact with their parents (in most circumstances).

Someone above said that in an ideal world you would get back what you put in. I think that’s how my mum sees it. She’s devoted her life to her children by being a stay at home mum so she wants her children to do the same for her, yet when we were young she always discouraged us from considering this an option because of how much she hated it!

My parents are only in their 60s and I'm pretty sure they would rather have anyone but me doing personal care for them if it came to it. Of my four grandparents, two died suddenly after short illnesses and two spent a couple of years in a care home - but they had money and it was a nice care home.

My organised mum apparently has a folder with a shortlist of homes for if the time came and they have budgeted to pay for them. I would certainly help but I can't see how it would help anyone to give up work for them.

I also think the whole keeping people alive business is tosh

It really isn’t. My 97 year old mum with severe dementia was prescribed seven courses of antibiotics in as many months. I had to ask her GP to stop in the end. Pneumonia is no longer allowed to be the old man’s friend, they get taken into hospital and pumped full of antibiotics. Our society is obsessed with length of life, it’s time we got real, accepted we’re not immortal and allow people to die with some dignity.

There are some fabulous care homes that give loving care and where life is made enjoyable

Go and spend a week in one and we’ll see what you think after that. The kind of home you’re thinking of costs a minimum of £1k a week. My parents’ was that five years ago, it’s probably closer to £1500 now. Most people’s money would run out pretty quickly at that rate.

Logically I agree OP. But I know of a very sad situation of an 83 year old woman who was very fit and active but had a stroke recently. She has spent her whole life caring for others, husband, children, grandchildren, other church members and generally the needy in her community. It's not unreasonable that she should want a little tlc herself but she doesn't get any. They all just want her to get better so she can resume normal service.

I agree there is a big difference between helping, in terms of taking to appointments, a trip out, shopping, and facilitating someone else to do the day to day stuff when needed, than doing the lot yourself. What if both your parents have dementia? And forget the when you switch the gas fire on you have to ignite it? And are starting to struggle I'm with continence? you have your own family? At some point you have to prioritise them, surely. And think if your own sanity.

Interesting about the cost of care homes, my parents were both self funding but I've been to a few and it was surprising how little cost difference there was (considering we are talking about several hundred a week) between the nicer homes and the not-so-nice. I suppose the difference becomes when the state pays and only certain homes will accept the lower level payment.

Regarding quality of life, that's very subjective isn't it, and why it makes me so angry when people say that people with dementia don't have a quality of life. Just because their life isn't what it was before doesn't mean it's not worth living. My mum really doesn't remember anything, aside from knowing who I am. She is now struggling to communicate verbally and unsteady on her feet, but she still loves to sit and watch people, listen to music, enjoys her food. I would say she has a quality of life. My dad, at the end, no, he lived too long. But when does one stage move into the other?

But when does one stage move into the other?

When it does, you just know. I sat in the car and howled the first time my mum didn’t know who I was, you still have that to come. I’m assuming that you still haven’t had the uncommunicative hours of vacantly staring into space either. That’s when you know.

GrumpyHoonMain They are all affordable. There is no difference in the standard for council run homes (not that there are many now) and private homes. The commissioning is exactly the same.

Funding is dependent on your condition- so many receive continuing care funding at no cost at all. Others pay dependent on their income and assets. It doesn’t cost the family anything. You only pay if you have savings over £23k. You might need to use the equity in the house, if you need long term care but since you’re not needing to live there it’s not really a problem, is it? Yes, some have to pay towards care just as I pay towards glasses and dentistry. If you choose a warden assisted scheme, then you retain all the capital as the flat is usually bought.

Alsohuman My mother is dying in a very run of the mill nursing home in a poor area. No porcelain tea services or Chintz. We don’t pay anything due to her condition. It’s a bit scruffy but the staff are kind and provide good care. I spend quite a lot of time there. I also know quite a lot about the industry standards through work. It’s interesting how on another thread people talk about care workers being skilled and hardworking and here we say care homes are awful. They really aren’t.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/social-care-and-support-guide/money-work-and-benefits/

Cherry paying for glasses is a world away from paying for carers to come in every day. It is very expensive.

And yes there are certain standards all care homes have to abide by. Nurseries also have to abide by certain standards. Are you really saying you have never been to a nursery where you would not leave your kids as the care is not good enough?

Good elder care costs a lot. The state will not pay enough and a lot of self funded people are unable to pay the very high costs of good quality care.
When my father was self funding to have carers coming into his home he was paying £2k a month. He could have got it cheaper, but that was to be cared for properly. Once the state funded it the care went down a lot.

I and my father don't care if a home is scruffy. It is about the staff. And IME most homes have a high turnover of low paid staff, some of whom are great and some of whom should not be working in the sector. But there are high vacancies and homes do need staff.

The picture you paint Cherry reminds me of my gran's care home about 30 years ago when ironically legal standards were a lot lower. Council run home, no ensuites, small bedrooms, but caring staff who had worked there for years. Sadly she was there when things started to change due to budget cuts.

Sorry my father is dead.

@yolofish did no one else in the family help your Sil though? Or offer an alternative arrangement. İ know your DH is I'll but is there no one else who could have suggested alternative help?

I agree with alsohuman

I would rather be dead than be in a state where I need 24 hour care or someone to wipe my bum. I have had a brilliant life (am mid fifties and hopefully have brilliant years ahead of me too) and will be ready to go before things deteriorate too far hopefully.

I wonder sometimes whether those who cling desperately to life are those who haven't had full and interesting lives. A close relative of mine who had a fabulous life (although not without sadness) was devastated when she was first diagnosed with terminal cancer, but as the disease progressed, and her quality of life diminished, she said "I have had a brilliant time. It's been grand but it's time to go."

She, and I, would be aghast at the idea of our DC having to give up their own lives to care for us, other than increased visits, emotional support etc

sorry HAHelp I dont understand your question?

DM wanted to die a long time before she actually did. Her last couple of years were pretty awful, and in fact I think I did my grieving for her before she died - her actual death, although a shock, was a relief and release not just for her but for all of us.

I had a heart attack at 52. My MIL first words when she saw me in the hospital were - "well who is going to look after me now"

• she lives 40 miles away in a tiny town with poor transport and roads in a house she can no longer manage, has all the illnesses of age that are not fatal but debilitating, alongside impaired mobility and the early stages of memory problems.

I felt relief. (at having had a heart attack!)

Short lived, because as I have recovered, so she has declined... DH does what he can for her, she tries to drag me in, but I will not take care of her. Last month she said that if only I would take up driving again it would make HER life much easier. There are reasons I will not drive - she is head of that list.

Some people are selfish - yes I am also one of them - I have to be for my own health.

So OP - I think that as people get older there IS that expectation that family will step up. Sometimes that has to happen, sometimes it simply cannot, sometimes something like a little heart attack comes along and rescues you...

Dementia would rule out Dignitas

This is what alot of people are forgetting. I watched a documentary on Dignitas and the rules are very, very strict. You have to have complete mental capacity to make the decision (which rules out dementia anyway) and you have to take the medication yourself - by your own hand (no staff or relatives are allowed to help you). Noone is allowed to give it to you or assist in any shape or form. So, this idea that people will just up and go to dignitas when they have dementia is simply not going to happen I'm afraid.

Dementia would rule out Dignitas

If I am diagnosed with early onset dementia then I'll do it straight away, not wait.

Some people are selfish - yes I am also one of them - I have to be for my own health

You are not selfish.Your MIL on the other hand sounds supremely selfish. My jaw dropped reading what she said you after you had a heart attack. Bloody hell- talk about self centred!