To not know how anyone can believe in God or not hate him if they do?

[JustWearThePants]

I've been thinking a lot about this lately. I've a relative who's very religious and brings God into every conversation and situation.

I grew up going to church with my parents and always just took the 'who knows' approach afterwards.

I've been through an incredibly traumatic experience lately, where something happened and keeps happening to me which has left me broken, a shell of who I was, depressed and anxious, and just wanting to die so many times.

Yet this relative always wants to bring God into my situation. Tell me how he'll help, if I pray, if I 'give it to him' it will help me etc... I want to shout and shake them and tell them to wake up.

It's left me honestly baffled how anyone can either believe at all or, if they do, why they don't see him as a horrid bully who enjoys watching people suffer. All you have to do is watch the news to see what goes on in the world.

Before this happened I was okay just letting my relative and whoever believe whatever they believe but now I want to scream at anyone who brings it up. How could you possibly feel loved by someone who allows these things to happen to you?

I'm so angry at someone telling me the man in the sky will make everything better yet whenever I ask why he's let it happen in the first place they have no answer. It's all 'his plan' or some other crap. And how when I start to feel better it's because of God giving me strength when actually it's me, I've put in the effort, I've gone through the shit.

I don't want to see this person anymore but I can't as they are a close family member and I know no one else in the family would understand.

YANBU to reject religion, but I think your family member is just trying to help and support you in a way that makes sense to them. I don't think being angry at religous people will help you, but of course it's fine to ask them to stop bringing up their faith. Sorry you've had a hard time.

I think you just have to say something along the lines of "I do not believe in God and would appreciate you not mentioning praying etc whenever I talk about my problems" I cannot stand this either. The stock response of "Just pray, its God's plan" is just plain odd. Maybe not talk to this person anymore if all they do is push their religion down your throat.

Thanks. I know my anger is misplaced. But I find it so... patronising?? Like this is such a serious thing, I am struggling so so much and I just get infuriated at the notion that if I just prayed it would be fine.

I struggle as well knowing that this person thinks it's all in God's plan for me as they tell me over and over. How can they be okay with this happening? It hurts knowing that if this never worked out for me they would still think it was all part of some amazing plan that they had no right to question.

This sums up my feelings on the topic.

And YANBU of course. Perhaps suggest to them that maybe God would like to pay your bills or do something of actual practical use to you.

I probably come across as selfish but this person is supposed to be one of the people who love me the most in the world. How can they not be mad? How can they not be so angry at the God they believe in? I don't understand how they can sit there and be okay that this is happening to me because it's all part of God's plan. It really upsets me.

If you find it hurtful then tell them.
Personally, I have been through a horrific childhood and found my faith in God to be the only thing that kept me going. I believe I would be dead now if it wasn’t for my faith. So it’s not the case that it’s unhelpful for everyone.

That said, I NEVER tell others what to believe as that’s not my business

There is a whole branch of theology dealing with the 'problem of evil' - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodicy

In my experience, religious people don't think suffering is good (unless they are also psychopaths, for reasons unrelated to religion) but they do think that god loves them and will ultimately take care of them (eg in heaven) despite their present suffering.

But you still get lots of religious charities - eg red cross, red crescent etc - which try to alleviate suffering in the world, at the same time as thinking god loves everyone.

So I don't think your relative's faith means that they think that your situation is somehow a good thing.

I guess Russell I just don't understand why these things happen in the first place if he loves us so much.

I don't understand why I've lost multiple babies and the (hypothetical) heroin addict, neglectful parent a few towns over is having their 6th with no problems. I don't understand how I'm supposed to take any comfort from God when he could change that if he wanted to, providing he's real of course.

I just feel like they never have an answer for that. Never. I've not heard a single answer ever that's made any sense as to why these things happen.

It's a complicated situation but I feel like I can't just come out with all this to my relative. They are older and need help from family, I'm expected to go and see them, help with things etc... And I do love them but this constant need to talk at me about God just means I either leave angry or in tears every time.

The issue is her trying to force it upon you, whether she means to or not.

In answer to your question - I occasionally struggle to understand how he can allow some of the truly awful things to happen. I sometimes get angry, and doubt my faith. But I take it back to 'free choice'. He allows us to choose our way in the world, make our own decisions, and unfortunately some people choose bad choices.

So I don't think your relative's faith means that they think that your situation is somehow a good thing

No I don't think they think it's a good thing. But they don't question it either. They don't get mad that this is happening. It's all very much 'well it's in God's hands' 'he must have a plan' blah blah.

Loch, of course. But no choice I've made in the past has caused me to lose babies one after the other for years.

I've sat there in a hospital scan room for what feels like the 10000th time and begged, literally on my hands and knees, begged. I've felt like I was going to leave that hospital and kill myself if something went wrong again. And it's not changed a thing, he's still no where to be seen.

I can see how some people need to believe in a god as a coping mechanism or to help process things and give them hope during tough times.

I really struggle to understand how people can genuinely really, truly believe in any of the organised religions/god when objectively thinking about it rather than going by emotions.

I think you are perhaps expecting too much of people to explain world suffering. Just because people have a faith doesn’t mean they have all knowing wisdom about everything you know?

I don’t have the answers to all the suffering in the world but I know that my faith has guided me and kept me going during times when I felt I was drowning. I think we live in a fallen world where suffering is part of life. I don’t believe God “wants” us to suffer. I don’t think anywhere in the bible it says you should expect a life free of suffering. Suffering is part of life. I dont mean that glibly just that, this is a reality of life. Im afraid I don’t have answers to big questions like this, I think you’ll find few people do. But I do know that faith helps me navigate a world in which very little makes sense.

Feel the same as you. I'd like to believe in God - it must be so comforting to have strong faith. But I just can't. I saw a woman being interviewed on TV about an accident she'd been involved in. She said it was a miracle from God that she had survived - even though her husband and child had died in the accident. What sort of fucked-up logic is that??
Religion just seems like a means of control - whatever awful things happen to you, it's 'God's will' so basically, just accept your lot and don't question it.

Just posted before I saw your update about miscarriages. My original post is more relevant to (for example) an innocent person being killed.

Your situation, I would struggle to answer why something so unfair is happening to you. I would have to say that there must be a bigger picture reason why none of those pregnancies continued. And that God cannot help every person all the time. Not everyone gets what they want.

Which is absolutely no comfort to you at all. If I was not religious and someone used that to explain my losses, I would not accept it.
I guess that's how religion works - it only works on those that believe.

I have a bunch of relatives who are very religious. They're absolutely lovely people who would do anything for anyone, and they've gone through terrible times themselves. For them, their faith has been a huge support to them. I've watched it happen, and been almost envious of them for having this 'thing' that gives them so much strength.

Fortunately though, they recognise that I don't share their faith, they've never tried to change that, and nor do they come out with this stuff.
When my husband (their cousin) had terminal cancer, yes, they said they'd pray for him. And I appreciated that thought and that they were doing something caring.

I don't think for a moment that they thought, never mind voiced, that they thought his illness and death was part of God's plan. If any of them had said that to me, I'd have had to challenge them and tell them how insensitive that was.

If this person continues to say it, I think that you should calmly tell them that you don't share their faith, that them saying that is distressing you, and that they're to stop.

She said it was a miracle from God that she had survived - even though her husband and child had died in the accident. What sort of fucked-up logic is that??

Agreed. I just can't wrap my head around it at all. I could say, as my relative would like me to believe, that the reason I haven't killed myself or that the reason I'm still trying and carrying on is because God's giving me strength. But it's not that. My husband gives me strength, my family, my friends, I give myself strength. I'm not giving a God that's done nothing to help me, the credit for that.

Because I don’t believe that the higher powers in which I believe act in the way you’ve described, in that they dole out punishments and act in vengeance (or indeed act with any emotion as nature doesn't have emotion). That’s not my experience of deity.

I find it hard to explain but my belief is that everything is connected and we can ask for things to happen through that connection, we can try to influence outcomes but there is not a Being who consciously makes a decision and hands down a ruling of what will happen.

@Namechangearooney1 Religion just seems like a means of control - whatever awful things happen to you, it's 'God's will' so basically, just accept your lot and don't question it. That's kind of it. It's a way of explaining and accepting why something has happened, even when it cannot be explained.
That lady in your story - believing she had been saved for some reason is her coping mechanism.

She said it was a miracle from God that she had survived - even though her husband and child had died in the accident. What sort of fucked-up logic is that

I’m not going to judge how someone copes with the loss of both their child and their husband. That’s a horrific situation and none of us know how we’d react to being in such an awful situation

What gets me is all these people who claim to be Christian, some of whom are regular features on MN, but who express utter contempt for their fellow human beings and seem to have completely thrown out The Gospels and in particular, The Beatitudes, which are in the first bloody book of the Gospel! You don't even have to read that far in to find them.

OP, I understand. I’ve buried a baby and had multiple miscarriages and often my first thought has been “why did You let this happen to me?” but then I think of the man in the Bible who lost everything and chose to say “blessed be the name of the Lord”. I don’t believe God puppet masters the world. Bad things happen, good things happen, things don’t happen fairly, but my faith has been the sole source of comfort to me during those times.

However. You have the right to ask her not to talk at you about it, and she should respect that.

The last time I looked, most of the bad things in the world were a result of human free will and humans choosing to be bad. That said, I do think a lot of Christians don't always seem to have thought through the implications of free will and their beliefs about God's direct interventions in concrete positive events in their life. From my understanding, I've not read anything in the Bible or wider theology that precludes the existence of God, just lots that shows humanity can be flawed.

Hope things improve for you.

I'm so sorry for your loss. I actually agree with you, I don't see an answer to the question of why a god would allow this (but I don't beleive in god anyway).

I agree with PPs that religious people don't think they have all the answers and often find comfort in their faith.

I think what your relative is trying to do is share a coping mechanism that works for her, with you, because she sees you are suffering and wants to help you. I completley understand why what she is saying is hurtful and I think you should tell her and ask her to stop. But I think that probably she is doing it from a place of love and caring for you, and is saying it because it's the only practical thing she can think of that might help you.