To not know how anyone can believe in God or not hate him if they do?

[JustWearThePants]

I've been thinking a lot about this lately. I've a relative who's very religious and brings God into every conversation and situation.

I grew up going to church with my parents and always just took the 'who knows' approach afterwards.

I've been through an incredibly traumatic experience lately, where something happened and keeps happening to me which has left me broken, a shell of who I was, depressed and anxious, and just wanting to die so many times.

Yet this relative always wants to bring God into my situation. Tell me how he'll help, if I pray, if I 'give it to him' it will help me etc... I want to shout and shake them and tell them to wake up.

It's left me honestly baffled how anyone can either believe at all or, if they do, why they don't see him as a horrid bully who enjoys watching people suffer. All you have to do is watch the news to see what goes on in the world.

Before this happened I was okay just letting my relative and whoever believe whatever they believe but now I want to scream at anyone who brings it up. How could you possibly feel loved by someone who allows these things to happen to you?

I'm so angry at someone telling me the man in the sky will make everything better yet whenever I ask why he's let it happen in the first place they have no answer. It's all 'his plan' or some other crap. And how when I start to feel better it's because of God giving me strength when actually it's me, I've put in the effort, I've gone through the shit.

I don't want to see this person anymore but I can't as they are a close family member and I know no one else in the family would understand.

I’m with you OP. I’m an atheist through and through and had a fair few well meaning people tell me it was ‘God’s plan’ when my son died in womb last April. They told me my Christopher was ‘With Him now’ and at peace. It grated - a lot - because this was coming from people who knew I do not subscribe to organised religion or the idea of a God. That was on one occasion so I can’t even begin to fathom how difficult it is for you to hear this on repeat from your well meaning, but tactless relative.

If you are agnostic I think when you feel up to it, a faith figurehead would be the best person to reach out to with your questions.

The worst for me was when I was asked could I believe that I would see my baby boy in heaven some day - almost like they thought I was being cruel to not entertain the idea. I don’t - I wish I did, really I do, but I don’t.

I won’t weigh in on the debate for/against religion, I will say that I am so sorry for what you have been through and are going through @JustWearThePants I believe that the strength to carry on must come from within. It’s not something we decide one day and then we have it, it’s a daily struggle.

www.the-highway.com/ultimate_questions.html

Have a read of that, you don't have to of course but hey why not?✌️

I'll give it a read, thanks Haribo.

NaviSprite thank you. I'm so sorry to hear about your son it's just bloody shit.

Ive read the full thread now and I can't tell if OP does or doesn't believe in God. If not you're pretty angry with something that doesn't exist. Maybe you need God to be angry at right now.

About your relative is she invested in you having a baby or in you feeling better, like your mum or a loving aunt might be? Remember that religious people dont have it all worked out. Some people spout this stuff as their best efforts to salve pain. If it upsets you tell them!

Also: God is not a man ìn the sky. Whatever God is its too much for us to take onboard.

Not every Christian thinks the same thing. You also have lots of deists on this thread who dont believe in a personally interested and ever loving God. This has been my experience of God. I dont understand it though.

Finally food for thought. Ignore if it annoys. There are lots of stories of barren women having babies in the bible. I dont read the bible literally but isn't its interesting that going back two or three thousand years one of the best examples of pain and suffering that the early jewish community could think of was being unable to bear a child. I wish I could explain how to do this but it might help to join your pain to the many thousands of years of similar suffering. Try and let your pain go, then pray from a place of peace. God may or may not help you but you cant pray in anger or resentment or treating God like a wish fulfilling genie. I hope you can get to a place of peace and acceptance.

Ive read the full thread now and I can't tell if OP does or doesn't believe in God

I guess I'm in a place of internal confusion about it. I was brought up in a religious family and never committed to either or since I've been an adult. It's only since this situation has been ongoing that I've been having these thoughts of either he doesn't exist at all or he's not a God I like.

Thank you for starting this thread op. I think it's really important to discuss stuff like this that maybe we can't so easily irl. I strongly believe in God, but you are absolutely not being unreasonable. Your relative is unreasonable to gloss over your situation as if your feelings would miraculously turn to hallelujah if only you trusted God. A previous poster suggested reading the psalms. This is because they are written from the point of view that acknowledges the depths of despair we find ourselves in sometimes. I would suggest this too. You might find some hope.

I thought OP was angry with the relative (who definitely exists and i imagine we all believe in), not angry with God?

I still can’t tell if you believe in God or not. You talk about him as if he exists but you imply he doesn’t. So which one is it?
A lot of people only start believing in God when their life turns into shit or when they want to blame someone when their life turns into shit so they can hang their shit on him. Because it’s easy to forget about him when everything is hunky dory.
The moment he doesn’t cater to everybody’s personal wants and needs people are saying he is not omnipotent.

@potatobug Can you answer my question about how omnipotent God is? Where do we draw the line? Or where does God draw the line?

Eckhart
Where do we draw the line about what?

How omnipotent is God? Well, once you are omnipotent then you are pretty much omnipotent limitlessly in every single way aren’t ya? Then it’s not a question of how much anymore.

Eckhart, I'm not sure anyone on mumsnet can answer that question, we can all only give opinions but fwiw i think charlottes post at 19:02 explains the Christian answer to this question very well.

I agree, if there is a God I’d like a word with him because he/she/it seems a bit of a bastard.

@Potatobug So is God omnipotent or not?

This is what I genuinely think I think God cries alongside you for you and with you for your babies. I think he is on the floor and in your pain. I think his face has rivers of tears at the pain and injustice. It was never meant to be this way. I think he keeps your babies safe until you will be reunited. I do not think this world is all there is or that death is the end. I think we find God hard to see because he is not external but he is ‘in here’ inside us - so close and it’s all we have ever known. Like a fish being asked to explain what living in water is like. I think that the loss you feel is connected to the love you feel. And I think that God is love and so he understands loss and he risk loving requires. I think that one day this whole world will be made new and there will be no more crying or sorrow or pain because the old way (the way we live presently) will pass away and there will be a new heaven and a new earth. I also think that there are no words that can console you and the only thing a family member can do is to hold you and let you cry without platitudes or agendas. Just be there.

Eckhart
Do you want him to be omnipotent? Then he will be. Create him to your own image by all means.

theteinkle Very well put. I think we are all part of God, we are all connected. God is in every living thing. The oceans, rivers, trees, the wind, the sun and moon.....everything. It is all God. There are good and bad people in the world, but mostly good. Just looking into people’s eyes, God is there. Very hard to put into words, but it’s how I feel.

@thetwinkletoescollective

That’s really beautiful ❤️

Do you question God or your expectation of him?

Do you expect to have rights and control over your children. Or do you hope and believe on them and their own free time will?

Not to insult anyone but...
I agree with others who find the actual story of the book of Job horrific. The thing about the Old Testament is it was written in a time when life was chaotic, often brutish, painful, and impossible to understand. So it makes sense that God (and the earlier ancient god) was also capricious, all powerful but not always fair/good, and sometimes spiteful (a father figure yes but an abusive one). It goes back to that Greek idea of humans being toys the gods play with. It isn’t nice but I can see how it helped people make sense of life. Then with the New Testament you have the utterly good, benevalant face of god in Jesus and there’s lots about it to really like - the emphasis on loving other human beings and the radical (even today) messages around equality. Plus “love thy neighbours as you love yourself” is a more positive message than “if a man rapes your wife you can rape their daughters in revenge” etc that came before it. But the downside of that is god morphs into a completely perfect, good all powerful being which is fine for many people but doesn’t help explain when chaotic, painful, and brutal things happen to other people (which is what your going through now). But Old Testament god isn’t great either so I’d prefer to believe in people (who are also deeply flawed as well as weak but it’s acceptable to say that they are. In fact that’s what makes us human and makes the everyday miracle of human kindness beautiful. It doesn’t help where things are out of our control though

Also - I think it’s normal to feel conflicted about whether he exists or not/to believe he doesn’t exist but also be angry with him. Lots of people brought up around religion feel that way don’t they?

Also ironicname - I want my children to have free will but I would never choose to force them to go through something as painful as the op is going through because I’m not a psychopath

I agree with you OP. But I dont hate "God" because I dont believe he exists. For lots of reasons like PP have said, too much pain In the world, too much unfairness and too much brutality. To be told its gods plan etc is just insulting. He supposedly can not fix everything nor should he be asked to, but you have to ask him for forgiveness when you have sinned? he however doesn't have to answer to anyone. Doesn't seem very fair to me. Someone upthread described god as a parent figure, that I can understand more. But there are people who believe god tests faith by letting bad things happen etc (I remember hearing that from a religious relative and immediately thinking, well that isn't very christian is it)

That said it's all about respecting peoples beliefs. I wouldn't shoot someone down for it, I can see why it might be comforting but I wouldn't want it pushed on me either OP.

I had four miscarriages. I completely get it. There is no silver lining in a miscarriage, it is just pure horror. It is totally inappropriate to push bullshit about a 'plan' and frankly this person should be told to fuck off.

I'm an ex-christian, I lost my faith long before my miscarriages. It went when as a nurse I encountered dementia. I met a woman in her forties with early onset dementia who had lost her speech, all she did was scream in anguish. She had two children under 10. Like a slap in the face it hit me that there can be no god, or at least no god I'd want to know. Realising that everything is random was wonderful and freeing; there is no grand cosmic significance, no need to beg for change in prayer. Life is what it is. It is to be enjoyed, sometimes endured, and nothing more.

The thing that irks me still is the idea there is 'a plan'. How lucky for us our plans did not feature living in the not-so-distant past and dying of a now preventable childhood disease, or making it to adulthood only to die in childbirth, of sepsis from a little cut, or dysentry. Or perhaps live to see many of our children die.

OP, it gets easier. You are grieving. You need time and space, but you will recover. I hope with everything I have that you go on to have a healthy pregnancy - most of us with recurrent miscarriage do with enough dice rolls or the help of a recurrent miscarriage clinic. I did.