To wish this 13 year old girl the best of luck and hope she is successful?

[Whatisthisfuckery]

A 13 year old girl is taking Oxfordshire County Council to court over its transgender toolkit for schools. According to the toolkit students who identify as trans can choose with which sex they get changed, or with whom they share a room on over night school trips.

This is madness, right? Potentially letting teenage boys get their kit off with the girls or share a dorm? When my DS has been on residentials he’s not known in advance who he’s sharing a room with, I just assume, naively, that the rooms will be single-sex.

Kids who are trans need to be supported and made to feel comfortable, but surely that shouldn’t come at the expense of everybody else?

AIBU to hope this 13 year old girl wins her case and gets this nonsense out of schools? As I understand it it’s not just Oxfordshire that would be affected. There are toolkits like this throughout the country, so if it’s ruled unlawful in court all of them will have to come down.

Sorry for the DM link.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7971457/Girl-13-launches-High-Court-fight-block-councils-advice-trans-pupils.html

I’ve also found an article in the Oxford Mail, for those of you who understandably don’t want to click on the DM.

www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/18213788.oxfordshire-girl-seeks-judicial-review-trans-toolkit/

That’s what I’m saying; we need to be open, there needs to be consent. We need to totally get away from the idea that a boy wearing a dress and makeup and doing traditionally girly things is weird.

As a parent I want to be able to say, “Oh little Jordan who’s played with the girls since reception, sure DD I have no problem you sharing with him,” or “Big Danny, who captained the first 11 and has dated half of The girls in Y12, absolutely no way.” Or even, “ I know nothing about him/her, hmm, I think not”.

Whilst it was very nice that they want to support a few children with their life choices it appears that it crossed no ones mind that those that it would affect mainly girls

Women and girls are never consulted we are just told this is what's happening and you are insert nasty name if you protest.

So many things have been changed which have a direct and negative on females yet we are never consulted.

Which is why this case is so important because the training schools and councils council's are receiving specifically states that if the child doenst consent to parents being told about their identity then keeping the secret is the way to go. And that parents arent to be told that Male bodied people will be sharing showers with gorks and vice versa.

And in the case of the girl guides it applies to leaders too so intimate care can be given by a Male bodied person behind the girls mothers back.

The f2m pupils do change with the boys.

They are fully integrated as boys and normally unrecognisable. It's not flagged up to staff. They are just boysfirstname:boyssurname. Staff don't look that closely and they do 'pass'. It's considered very homophobic to notice, and it's difficult to tell, so you just treat them as boys. Eg in boy / girl seating plan. PE staff may have exceptions but I doubt it.

Which seems fine until someone breaks their neck in rugby

How can adolescent girls object since objecting will incur a charge of transphobia? This is a Catch 22 where objections can be labelled hate crimes. Where is the public consent for ending sex segregated toilets? When was this debated? Why are policies being implemented without debate or public consent?

@Mlou32

Yes lots of trans teens, there were about a dozen at each of my DD's schools (admittedly huge 2000+ city schools) not all transitioned though, more gender confused. One person I know well lived for 2 years as a "male" before returning to her birth sex of female, but non binary and cane out as gay (she had a boyfriend when she was living as a boy)

So you feel a lie about their sex would be better?

How will that keep them safe?

Not at all, and I did say I do not advocate putting trans young people with penises in rooms shared with girls.

I said they could either go in a separate room at extra cost and apply to trans charities to help with funding that if required, or opt out of the trip or activity on grounds of the conditions being unsuitable for them, as many Muslim girls currently do.

Bit off-topic but is "toolkit" the new corporate buzzword for guidelines? Sounds so dumb.

I think that's naive, DragonEmbroidery. A transboy has a different body from a boy. Surely staff do know a teenage girl's body shape from a boy's, and so do the other children?

The boy/girl seating plan is absolutely a case of a split by 'gender' (and can be bloody annoying for the Girl Buffer Zones) but changing facilities should be by sex.

How awful. Teenage boys were grim whilst I was at school. What happens if/when a girl gets raped? I imagine some kind of cover up just like in the Asian sex ring case because no one wants to be seen as racist or transphobic.

Or indeed trans young people with vaginas in rooms sharing with boys.

There is no point in refusing to acknowledge that they exist, is there? The way forward is to provide them with options that respect the needs of both sexes and keep everyone safe. Which in the case of residential trips would mean a separate room made available, but I don't see why the education authority to should foot the bill for it.

Third spaces have been rejected though.

Gender neutral is ok

Separate sex is ok provided they can use the one according to identity

But third spaces are apparently not acceptable

I'm 110% behind her. Hope she has a mum who's on here and can pass on our support. Whatever the outcome this is a David and Goliath scenario and she's a legend.

Are there actually a lot of teenagers changing genders? [...] I hear about it all the time in the media

Bingo!

It's fashionable. It's a meme, in the Richard Dawkins sense. It's been An Issue in soaps. In the past 20 years we've had eating disorders, Tourettes (that was someone in Big Brother IIRC) and self-harm "addressed" in soaps and every time there's a surge of pupils who'd never have considered it but now think they might give it a try. For every genuine self-harmer who cut in places she (usually) could hide there were a load who scratched their forearms a bit with their fingernails then rolled their sleeves up to display the resultant wheals.Then the media spotlight moved on and they tried something else.

Adolescence is a time for feeling not-at-home in your own body, for wondering what your place is. Soap characters don't just take the stigma away from certain behaviours; they make them seem cool. A young person who might otherwise have had a rocky few years before self-acceptance now gets a behaviour to try, a label to wear and an explanation of why they feel just wrong, and told is how stunning and brave they are.

I'm not saying AT ALL that there aren't genuinely transgender people, but I'll be interested to see what the rate is in ten years or so when the spotlight's moved on to the next behaviour.

These toolkits are effectively a massive brick thrown at the window.

Thereafter, child safeguarding can be tossed out without even a sound.

Dragonembroidery I'm a secondary school teacher. We are all informed of the transgender status of a f2m, particularly as there are serious concerns regarding physical education as Sarahtancredi says. And m2f is obvious after age 13. I don't know why you think the staff don't know.

Mlou32
In my DD's secondary school (All girls) there is at least 2 in her year's group of 4 forms (not sure about the other group of four) that have come out as transboys. I say 'come out' not to be dismissive, but because this is what my DD has told me and I do not know them or their families personally. I do not know if it is anything but the two students talking about socially transitioning or visiting gender clinics etc.

I also know of two other girls in that year at that school who are lesbian girls whose parents are watching and waiting. So, at least 3 or 4 in year 9.

In another local mixed school, again in year 9, there is a transgirl. I was speaking to a parent of one of the girl's friends about the discretion that was needed in organising sleeping arrangements for a camp.

So, I am definitely wishing this brave 13 year old all the luck and all the support that she can get.

In the case of "all the girls are fine with this so what's the problem " ...

Let's follow this further down the track ... I'm worried that there could be an element of peer pressure here but even if not this feels uncomfortably like some girls could be groomed, I.e you were happy for X to share last week, what's the problem with new student Y who is also trans, sharing too? Oh and this student too. And so on.

Not sure if I've made sense there

But yes, best of luck to that brave young girl.

Round here: yes. Pretty much in every year at our fairly ordinary-sized comprehensive and sixth form.

I know this will cause anger but I'll ask anyway because it isn't meant to be judgemental or anything else other than a genuine comment. You say that round your school it's pretty common but how much of this is genuine and how much is jumping on a bandwagon? I know from teaching in large schools that if something different happens, suddenly everyone wants to join in.

Diego yes, has been a buzzword for that for quite some time.

@EthelMayFergus
I too am a secondary school teacher. It is hard to tell in KS3 and I've not taught trans pupils in KS4. Make own conclusions on this.
I've never been told, it's not on data and I think me asking HoD, Sendco, SMT (?) wouldn't go well. (Transphobic)

Maybe you work somewhere very different to my experience. Poss Isle of Wight as someone else on a different thread did.

mrsBtheparker that is why so much more needs to be done with this (and why I am so keen to keep learning about it) . Have you read any threads on ROGD on the Feminist chat board? There are some interesting links on their these thread to start gathering your own thoughts..

Good luck to her. It is a bloody shame that she’s even having to do this.

If people want or need to be different to their born sex then fine. All speed to them. But until your transition is complete and you feel uncomfortable using the men’s room, then use a third space.

A third space can be used by anyone so no discrimination there.

I’m damned sure that there won’t be women or girls desperate to share with the boys...

Why should women and girls have to comply meekly because a bloke declares himself female but chooses to retain his jewels?

For the love of all things holy, I want my female space clear of men thanks.

YANBU