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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wish this 13 year old girl the best of luck and hope she is successful?

267 replies

Whatisthisfuckery · 06/02/2020 08:49

A 13 year old girl is taking Oxfordshire County Council to court over its transgender toolkit for schools. According to the toolkit students who identify as trans can choose with which sex they get changed, or with whom they share a room on over night school trips.

This is madness, right? Potentially letting teenage boys get their kit off with the girls or share a dorm? When my DS has been on residentials he’s not known in advance who he’s sharing a room with, I just assume, naively, that the rooms will be single-sex.

Kids who are trans need to be supported and made to feel comfortable, but surely that shouldn’t come at the expense of everybody else?

AIBU to hope this 13 year old girl wins her case and gets this nonsense out of schools? As I understand it it’s not just Oxfordshire that would be affected. There are toolkits like this throughout the country, so if it’s ruled unlawful in court all of them will have to come down.

Sorry for the DM link.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7971457/Girl-13-launches-High-Court-fight-block-councils-advice-trans-pupils.html

I’ve also found an article in the Oxford Mail, for those of you who understandably don’t want to click on the DM.

www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/18213788.oxfordshire-girl-seeks-judicial-review-trans-toolkit/

OP posts:
SingingSands · 07/02/2020 00:05

@Areyoureallylistening that is horrendous. I'm sending strength to your daughter and you Thanks

Neednewwellies · 07/02/2020 00:12

@Areyoureallylistening Flowers for your daughter. Poor girl. Her school have acted disgracefully. Angry

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/02/2020 00:37

Whilst it was very nice that they want to support a few children with their life choices it appears that it crossed no ones mind that those that it would affect mainly girls

That's because public sector organisations are failing in their Public Sector Equality Duty by not considering the needs or issues of the other protected characteristics. The understanding of what Equality Impact Assessments are for, and how to do one, is woeful.

OldCrone · 07/02/2020 00:38

I thought that neuroscientists had found some differences between male and female brains, just not the ones being claimed for them by transactivists?

But if there is some aspect of male brains which is completely different from female brains, then they would never find a female brain in a male body. And if they did ever find what they thought was a female brain in a male body, it would just mean that their hypothesis was wrong, and whatever they thought made a brain definitely female or definitely male wasn't so clear cut after all and could actually exist in brains of people of either sex.

But by 'ladybrain' I was really referring to the somewhat ridiculous idea that a man (or boy) could 'feel like' a woman (or girl), because he believes he has a 'female brain'.

wellbehavedwomen · 07/02/2020 00:44

But the LA are leading this, and providing training and resources - and all the resources for schools locally militantly plug that line.

The policy Ikeasucks screenshotted is for a 33 school federation, and offers the following guidance:

Q: My daughter doesn’t want a boy changing next to her, what if he looks at her body?

A: For example, in this scenario it would not be appropriate to remove the trans person from the changing rooms if a concern is raised by a parent or carer. In this situation, it would be far more appropriate to look at offering an alternative changing arrangement for the child who feels uncomfortable around the trans person. A Human Rights response would be to state that although the individual in question may have the body of a boy, they are in every other respect a girl and as such have the right under the Equality Act to change with the girls and to be treated fairly as such. It is the responsibility of members of staff to support both trans students and cisgender students to feel comfortable around one another.

That is in direct contravention of the law. The Equality Act is clear that you can have single sex facilities in changing rooms etc, and that a transgender person who does not have a GRA (which you can't get before you are 18) must be treated in that situation according to their sex, and not gender identity. They are citing law that does not apply, ignoring sex-based protections which do apply... and even with a GRA, some exceptions are allowable, if it's seen as a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. Allowing girls the right to set boundaries over who sees them unclothed is that, given its significance in safeguarding. So while no child can have a GRA, those adults in the school who might would still be subject to whether or not the best interests of the children might be best served by retaining single sex care and oversight in certain contexts. None of these exemptions are in any way even hinted at in this policy.

This federation - which covers 33 schools, and so this policy applies to tens of thousands of children - insists that it's important to teach children to accept male as female, when told to do so. To deny their own instincts, and the evidence of their eyes, and believe that simple declaration can alter material reality. That trans policy refers to, "true gender". It misrepresents both science, and the law. And it does so without any regard for the fact that both sex and religious belief are protected strands, and at least one, and potentially both, are engaged here.

Transition does not magically alter risk - obviously it doesn't increase it, but nor does it reduce it (and that would include the risk to transboys in male spaces, too). It does not magically transform a body. There is literally no evidence at all that gender identity is real, any more than we can prove the existence of a soul. It is a faith belief, and should be politely respected, as any faith belief - but faith beliefs shouldn't dictate the lives of non-believers. Yet:

All schools need to work towards a robust whole school approach towards developing an understanding of trans issues and prevention of transphobia, which will minimise the potential of issues or concerns being raised by cisgender members of the school community including parents and carers about trans children and young people accessing toilets, residential facilities etc according to their gender identity rather than their biological sex.

Where a child’s trans identity is known to the wider school community schools will need to ensure that they have a robust language using the Equality Act and a Human Rights approach to counteract any prejudice expressed or concerns raised. Additionally, when a parent or carer raises a concern about the safety of their child when spending time in the company of a trans identified pupil or staff member it is vital that staff focus on the ‘problem’ being with the person who raises the concern and not with the trans individual.

They are saying that parents asking them to apply the law and the sex based exceptions, to protect the dignity and privacy and safety of their children in communal changing rooms and in shared accommodation on residential trips, are transphobes, and have a problem, and must be challenged robustly.

I'd really welcome more information on what aspects of the new SRE policy are going to be compulsory, really. Because your words are comforting, and wholly unreflected by the guidance being given to schools, and in turn parents, locally to me. So I'd (honestly - I'm not being sarcastic, I'm genuinely asking for help!) appreciate links to the extent to which parents still retain the right to limit their children's exposure to this regressive, damaging nonsense.

OldCrone · 07/02/2020 01:00

That trans policy refers to, "true gender". It misrepresents both science, and the law. And it does so without any regard for the fact that both sex and religious belief are protected strands, and at least one, and potentially both, are engaged here.

The schools and local authorities have written these policies using advice from lobby groups such as Mermaids, Stonewall, GIRES and Gendered Intelligence. They all misinform the schools and give them a false interpretation of the law.

The staff at the schools and LAs all seem to just believe this nonsense without at any point either engaging their brains or getting any independent legal advice about the actual implementation of the Equality Act or the Public Sector Equality Duty.

Hopefully legal action such as this case in Oxfordshire might start to focus their minds a bit.

Ikeasucks · 07/02/2020 01:02

We need to see more legal action, I hope this girl is being protected from any backlash and bullying

wellbehavedwomen · 07/02/2020 01:04

Oh, and the other thing that's been overlooked - the Trans Inclusion Toolkit says boys who identify as girls must be allowed to compete in sports as girls, too. Which, after puberty, is clearly going to be unsafe in some contexts, and unfair in almost all. Once puberty hits, male advantage averages at 10%. Mediocre boys would still beat most girls hollow in sports where strength, height and/or speed convey an advantage. Which, let's face it, is most of them. It's already happening in the USA, and girls there say they know who will win before races even start. They can't begin to compete.

The young girl bringing this case has said:

"I hated primary school PE because the boys didn't care and would run around in their pants and watch the girls change. All the girls ended up getting changed in the toilets which was disgusting. Now my body is changing I am really self conscious and it's awkward even in front of girls. I love sport but if boys came in and expected to be treated the same as girls I wouldn't get changed until they had gone. Also, I'm a tiny teen girl, and I'm not very good at ball sports but I do well at judo and karate and I do practice with boys. Even though my technique is good I know that many 11 year old boys can beat me on strength. If I did a competition against a trans girl of my grade I'd have no hope and they would break me". Miss B, Aged 13, Oxfordshire Student

AutumnRose1 · 07/02/2020 01:07

wellbehavedwonan thank you for that.

It’s really shocking. I’m amazed there’s not been a group action yet. But my friends are all very woke, or, they think I’m being really alarmist and unfair in my views on men. Some are bit like the Rachel97 poster.

I still think there’s a link here with loss of privacy. So many people no longer care about privacy, they wouldn’t care if all children were just in the same communal changing room or hostel room with no accounting for any privacy at all.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 07/02/2020 01:07

Hopefully legal action such as this case in Oxfordshire might start to focus their minds a bit.

I'm hoping so very much that the case succeeds. It's so important.

nonsenceagain · 07/02/2020 08:44

Great posts wellbehavedwomen.

Oliversmumsarmy · 07/02/2020 09:09

A Human Rights response would be to state that although the individual in question may have the body of a boy, they are in every other respect a girl

What does they are in every other respect a girl actually mean?

Has anyone ever asked and got a satisfactory answer to some of these sound bites that are thrown out there

Clymene · 07/02/2020 09:14

I am so grateful that my children's school doesn't go along with any of this. They have no trans inclusion policy and have one line on sexual identity and sexual orientation in their Sex and Relationships which says that teachers should be able to deal honestly and sensitivity with sexual orientation. Doesn't talk about identity at all.

Our head is an enormously sensible woman who has no enthusiasm for wokeness thankfully

QuimReaper · 07/02/2020 10:58

@wellbehavedwomen I've just been trying to find the relevant section of the EA2010 which talks about single sex spaces, and found this from the [[https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/discrimination-in-the-provision-of-goods-and-services/discrimination-in-the-provision-of-goods-and-services1/goods-and-services-what-are-the-different-types-of-discrimination/what-doesn-t-count-as-unlawful-discrimination-in-goods-and-services/single-sex-and-separate-services-for-men-and-women-when-discrimination-is-allowed/ CBA website]]:

Transgender people and separate or single sex services
Transgender people mustn't be excluded from separate or single sex services provided to people of their acquired gender, unless there's a good enough reason. This can be the case whether or not they have a gender recognition certificate. A gender recognition certificate is a document which allows you to be legally recognised in your acquired gender.

This seems to contradict what you say about the GRC - that you don't need a GRC in order to use single sex spaces of your "acquired" gender. Or does that just apply to services, not spaces?

Just trying to get it straight, sorry to use you as a sounding board - you seem very knowledgable on the subject.

CaveMum · 07/02/2020 12:50

@QuimReaper within the Equality Act it also mentions those who have begun to transition but not yet received a GRC.

7Gender reassignment

(1)A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.
(2)A reference to a transsexual person is a reference to a person who has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.
(3)In relation to the protected characteristic of gender reassignment—
(a)a reference to a person who has a particular protected characteristic is a reference to a transsexual person;
(b)a reference to persons who share a protected characteristic is a reference to transsexual persons.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/7

wellbehavedwomen · 07/02/2020 12:56

Hi @QuimReaper - that's very kind, but I'm absolutely not an expert! I'm learning this as I go, same as most of us.

The Equalities and Human Rights Commission have issued direct guidance, that says:

Under the Act, the protection from gender reassignment discrimination applies to all trans people who are proposing to go, are undergoing or have undergone (part of) a process of gender reassignment. At the same time, a trans person is protected from sex discrimination on the basis of their legal sex. This means that a trans woman who does not hold a GRC and is therefore legally male would be treated as male for the purposes of the sex discrimination provisions, and a trans woman with a GRC would be treated as female. The sex discrimination exceptions in the Equality Act therefore apply differently to a trans person with a GRC or without a GRC.

The protection against discrimination on gender identity ('transsexual') would obviously, and rightly, still apply, but as there can't be any GRC, it doesn't alter the rights based on biological sex, either - and you are able to keep single sex provision under the law far more simply. This is about balancing rights, and the right to single sex provision doesn't evaporate just because certain lobby groups think that it should. You can absolutely retain single sex provision, but at the same time, you shouldn't force anyone who identifies as trans into natal sex provision (I agree with that - I think the potential for bullying, and actual harm, is also clear. Nobody should be thrown under the bus here - nobody. If anyone, especially a child, is vulnerable then separate provision should be made, so their own dignity and privacy are also respected).

What's interesting is that the EHRC also say in that statement that 'Gender’ refers to socially constructed roles of women and men and/or an individual’s conception of their identity. That's a long way from asserting 'true gender', and it acknowledges gender as a construct.

The CAB's advice is that there can be exclusion if there's a good enough reason. That's pretty well the entire basis of sex as a protected characteristic - lawful discrimination.

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 07/02/2020 15:19

Right I've skirted around this for too long now and keep putting it off. I need to email DD school and ask what their policies are. Can someone help with some wording I can put into an email,please? I'm scared (I know, pathetic, especially in light of the wonderful girl this threads about Confused) I'll be dismissed as "transphobic" and/or somehow have that opinion projected onto DD. i don't really care what school may think of me but I don't my contact to impact on her.

Ikeasucks ... can I ask what you wrote? Ta muchly.

AmelieTaylor · 07/02/2020 15:24

@Clymene. Which country do your children go to school in?

AutumnRose1 · 07/02/2020 15:27

I just realised I probably know the answer to my own question

the reason parents aren't protesting en masse is fear of job loss, isn't it?

Clymene · 07/02/2020 15:32

We're in England AmelieTaylor

wellbehavedwomen · 07/02/2020 15:50

@tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz Safe Schools Alliance have template letters, and advice sheets on what to be looking for when investigating the provision in your area, on their website.

They also suggest that you contact them to be put in touch with other concerned parents in your area, to provide support and real life engagement with parents who are equally concerned to ensure that all rights and needs are protected in these policies.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 07/02/2020 15:51

OldCrone
if there is some aspect of male brains which is completely different from female brains, then they would never find a female brain in a male body. And if they did ever find what they thought was a female brain in a male body, it would just mean that their hypothesis was wrong, and whatever they thought made a brain definitely female or definitely male wasn't so clear cut after all and could actually exist in brains of people of either sex.

I would be very surprised indeed if they found a brain in a male body which had no Y chromosome anywhere in it and was therefore female!

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 07/02/2020 16:35

Thanks wellbehavedwomen, that's really helpful. I feel more comfortable with the idea my question is part of a bigger picture too. Thanks 🙏

AmelieTaylor · 07/02/2020 18:11

@Clymene. That does surprise me! I wonder how they’ve been able to avoid all of the stuff the other schools are having to comply with.

Ikeasucks · 07/02/2020 18:23

Tellmewhen - I haven’t said anything to the school, was thinking of bypassing them and going to my MP.

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