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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wish this 13 year old girl the best of luck and hope she is successful?

267 replies

Whatisthisfuckery · 06/02/2020 08:49

A 13 year old girl is taking Oxfordshire County Council to court over its transgender toolkit for schools. According to the toolkit students who identify as trans can choose with which sex they get changed, or with whom they share a room on over night school trips.

This is madness, right? Potentially letting teenage boys get their kit off with the girls or share a dorm? When my DS has been on residentials he’s not known in advance who he’s sharing a room with, I just assume, naively, that the rooms will be single-sex.

Kids who are trans need to be supported and made to feel comfortable, but surely that shouldn’t come at the expense of everybody else?

AIBU to hope this 13 year old girl wins her case and gets this nonsense out of schools? As I understand it it’s not just Oxfordshire that would be affected. There are toolkits like this throughout the country, so if it’s ruled unlawful in court all of them will have to come down.

Sorry for the DM link.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7971457/Girl-13-launches-High-Court-fight-block-councils-advice-trans-pupils.html

I’ve also found an article in the Oxford Mail, for those of you who understandably don’t want to click on the DM.

www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/18213788.oxfordshire-girl-seeks-judicial-review-trans-toolkit/

OP posts:
bellinisurge · 06/02/2020 13:06

Hope she wins. Thanks for posting about it.

ICouldHaveBeenAContender · 06/02/2020 13:09

Another one saying I hope she wins. Wish I had half her bravery. Also wish it wasn't necessary ...

EthelMayFergus · 06/02/2020 13:10

My son also hates this, he would hate to have to share changing rooms with a girl, due to regards for his own privacy. But - at six foot - he doesn't have the same element of fear as my daughters' have, including the fear of being filmed without their knowledge.

I hope every parent or grandparent of girls contributes to this brave girl's crowdfunder, as this is the biggest threat to women's rights in my life time.

slipperywhensparticus · 06/02/2020 13:17

I feel compelled to point out it's not just transgender children that this toolkit will cover its staff too so "miss teacher" can be a man etc and in some schools a female member of staff will occasionally sleep in the girls dorm or a male in the boys dorm if they are playing up....

GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER · 06/02/2020 13:18

What’s all this ‘toolkit’ nonsense anyway? WTF is wrong with ‘strategy’ or another standard word I can’t think of ATM?

But of course I hope she wins against the uber-woke, self-consciously virtue-signalling brigade.

ChickenonaMug · 06/02/2020 13:18

What have we come to that a girl needs to go to court to maintain her boundaries, to be allowed dignity and privacy?

There are so many organisations that should hang their heads in shame that they have enabled a situation where a 13yr old girl has to go through the stress of going to court to uphold her boundaries and have her need for, and rights to, privacy, dignity and safety maintained.

stillathing · 06/02/2020 13:19

It's funny, my son being "gender non conforming" (ie nobody will bat an eyelid if he turns out to be gay) is one of the things that made me question trans ideology and start to see the sexism and homophobia inherent in it.

AmelieTaylor · 06/02/2020 13:19

The way I look at it is, if they’re old enough to choose to change gender or sex, they’re old enough to consider other people and use unisex or individual toilets/changing areas & sleeping facilities. If they’re not mature enough to understand this affects other people’s comfort/safety then they’re not mature enough to be making these decisions.

(& those individual spaces should be made readily available to them without a fuss. whilst we are permitting this notion of gender/sex changing being possible).

However, my honest feeling in all of this is that I fully support an adult that still feels they were born into the wrong body when get they get to 25 or so (preferably even
Older) but not children And that it needs to have been a sustained position over many years & not a ‘I raise a woman with my
Penis, but I identify as a woman (because I want a lesser sentence/to go to a woman’s prison etc)

Children should be told that whatever sex/gender they are, is what they are and they can still do what they want to do in life. and that it’s normal to be confused by growing up & life and it doesn’t mean changing is the answer.

I wish this girl luck, but she should NOT have to be doing this FFS.

JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown · 06/02/2020 13:22

Surely as long as everything is open and everyone consents then there doesn’t need to be any problem
Since this is just being rolled out, no one is asking for girls to consent. It's just assumed.
Instead, any girls who don't want to get changed in front of their male, often heterosexual, classmates have to actively object.
Considering the incredibly toxic environment around this, it's unrealistic to expect children to take the initiative to speak up, especially against adults who will instead 'educate' them that only bigots object, or against their peers who might ostracism them or call them a terf.
Grown women are scared of speaking about this because of the abuse ostracisation and accusations that follow, we can't ask young girls to face it too.

OldCrone · 06/02/2020 13:23

Boys are FAR more accepting of variation of personality and appearance and body shape among boys than girls are among girls.

@Dragonembroidery if boys are so accepting to gender non-conforming boys, and girls are so cruel, why would a boy who identifies as a girl want to go in the girls' changing room? According to you he'd be safer and treated with more kindness by the boys than going in with the nasty girls. So he could change with the boys, and the added advantage is that the children would still be segregated by sex, keeping the children with male bodies in one changing room and the children with female bodies in another.

LeekMunchingSheepShagger · 06/02/2020 13:24

I also really hope she wins. Her parents must be bloody proud of her.

nonsenceagain · 06/02/2020 13:25

What it boils down to for me is that girls and women are being told to do all the adjusting and accepting, while also being told that there's no debate to be had.

Where is the consultation? Where is the balancing of different rights and responsibilities? Where are the impact studies? Where is the ability for women to express concerns without being being called transphobes?

Those are all deliberately absent from this process, and we all know why.

Spero · 06/02/2020 13:27

Not remotely unreasonable! I hope she wins. Everything crossed. The fact that the likes of Adam Wagner seem to be getting a bit anxious about this is wonderful to see.

MrKlaw · 06/02/2020 13:27
  • I assume this isn't just a boy going 'I'm a girl now' one day and thats it. There would need to be a period of change involved, probably review by local government/school board etc to acknowledge the person as transgender. If a hetero boy is doing this for cheap thrills, well it won't really be that cheap to go through all of that.
  • there is no sexual preference included here either? If you take gender identity into account, shouldn't you also segregate based on preference? Arguably you would feel worse changing in front of the same sex if they were homosexual (as they have attraction to your sex) than a transgender person that identifies as heterosexual?
Effzeh · 06/02/2020 13:28

Surely as long as everything is open and everyone consents then there doesn’t need to be any problem.

So if your 13 or 414 yo dd wanted to share a two-bed dorm with her boyfriend on a school trip, you'd be fine with that?

Come on. If a girl and a boy, whether in a relationship or not, asked to be put in the same room on a residential trip they would be given extremely short shrift. If the boy identifies as female, literally nothing about this scenario has changed, except that many people now think it's fine.

Da fuq?

MaryQContrary · 06/02/2020 13:29

YANBU
I've book marked the crowdfunder page so I can donate later and will write to my brand new (Tory) MP.

Good luck, Miss A!

CaveMum · 06/02/2020 13:32

@MrKlaw you fail to understand “self-ID” which literally is just a declaration of the person’s “gender identity” with absolutely no consultation with parents/doctors or questioning. So yes it would in theory be as simple as a boy saying that they feel they are a girl and want access to the female spaces.

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 06/02/2020 13:33

OldCrone agree

Languishingfemale · 06/02/2020 13:34

Brave young woman. There are no groups of women anywhere in the world who are demanding to share toilets, changing rooms, hospital wards etc with men. Women don't want this yet trans groups who insist that mere words are 'literal violence' demand that women give up their basic rights to safety, privacy and dignity because..... reasons.....

We need her to win.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 06/02/2020 13:39

MrKlaw, I'm afraid your assumptions are unfounded. Not only is there no medical or psychological gatekeeping of any kind, but school staff, Guiders etc etc have been told that if the child requests that parents are not told, the adult confidants should respect that. There are cases from the US and Canada, which are further down the rabbithole than we are, of parents getting a call or report from school about a child with a name they don't recognise. On querying it they finally discover that the school changed the child's name on all records weeks or months ago but did not tell, let alone consult, the parents.

There are also cases from the US and Canada where parents who object to social transition and medical treatment are threatened with having their children removed by social services. Therapists have been told that unquestioning affirmation is the only acceptable treatment for gender issues and the older treatment model of 'watchful waiting' is akin to conversion therapy. Existing mental health issues, diagnosis of autism and so on - all regarded as irrelevant. A confused child's claim to have been born in the wrong body is all that matters.

Good luck to this young woman. She will need it.

Barracker · 06/02/2020 13:48

I have a 3 week old and by the time he's a teenager, I totally expect same sex spaces to have pretty much been phased out, and why not?

Why not?
Because women and girls will always have the right to say no to men and boys when it comes to their bodily boundaries.
And that includes saying no to your son.

I very much hope you'll decide to teach him not to disregard women and girls' consent.
If they don't want to be naked or share intimate space with him, and he's learned from you that their boundary regarding him is violable by him, because "why not", you may find yourself aquainted with the visitors waiting rooms at your nearest prison.

'No' is absolute.
'No, I'm not sleeping in the same room as you' is absolute.
'No' I'm not getting naked with you is absolute.

Do teach your newborn son that, please, as he grows.

There's already a world full of men who think women shouldn't ever get to reject them. Don't raise one more.

wellbehavedwomen · 06/02/2020 13:48

Surely as long as everything is open and everyone consents then there doesn’t need to be any problem.

It's not open. The policy being challenged says that nobody - the opposite sex children and young people in question, and the parents of those children and young people - are not told, far less asked for consent. Nobody is being given any sort of a choice here, and parents aren't even told.

There would need to be a period of change involved, probably review by local government/school board etc to acknowledge the person as transgender. If a hetero boy is doing this for cheap thrills, well it won't really be that cheap to go through all of that.

No there wouldn't. This toolkit that is being challenged states very clearly that as soon as an individual says they are transgender, they must be treated for all purposes as that new gender. That's why there is a court case. Your own suggested approach would be deemed transphobic, you see. In fact the new CPS guidance says girls must be taught that challenging a boy or male in their spaces is unlawful, and even potentially criminal. That will almost certainly be challenged too, because the fucking CPS literally say that bullying a child for being black or disabled is less bad than doing so for being LGBT. It creates a hierarchy of protected groups. And you know who's not protected at all under that advice? Women and girls, harassed and bullied on grounds of sex. Which happens an awful lot in schools, as it does in society. But there's silence on that one.

- there is no sexual preference included here either? If you take gender identity into account, shouldn't you also segregate based on preference? Arguably you would feel worse changing in front of the same sex if they were homosexual (as they have attraction to your sex) than a transgender person that identifies as heterosexual?

Sorry, but that sounds homophobic to me. The threat from boys is not around sexual preference, but male patterns of violence - 98% of sexual crime is committed by men; we average around thirteen and a half thousand men in jail for sex offences, compared to a hundred and twenty five or so women. And before you eyeroll (because these are kids, right?) - one girl's rape on school grounds is reported to the police on for every single day of the school year, and that's the tip of the iceberg in terms of what happens in our schools unless you genuinely think all rapes are reported, and nothing but rape happens - no assaults, harassment, groping or voyeurism at all. And a transboy (natal female) was sexually assaulted by male peers when housed with them on a school trip under this policy. Other girls were upset when a transgirl walked around with excited male anatomy very much on show. This policy isn't unique to schools, either. Most sports organisations have also adopted it. Girl Guiding have booted out women raising concerns on this policy applying to all guiders, and all staff. Because sex segregation is safeguarding 101, and yet apparently we need to adopt collective amnesia, as soon as trans issues arise.

And that's before you get into the privacy aspects. Single sex provision means each sex can change amongst peers with the same anatomy. Do you remember being a teenager? How stressful and uncomfortable all the changes were? You don't want opposite sexed companions when changing.

For clarity: a trans person is no more or less likely to pose a risk than someone of that biological sex who has not transitioned. So we should be applying the exact same policies, on a basis of biological sex. For the safety, privacy and dignity of all parties concerned. We certainly shouldn't be forcing trans people or children into provision with their former gender identity. But nor should we ask children and young people to accept a policy that we have considered unsafe and unreasonable for extremely good reason, to cater to others. We need to provide alternatives so that everyone's needs, rights and interests are balanced.

FebruaryRainandSleet · 06/02/2020 13:52

- I assume this isn't just a boy going 'I'm a girl now' one day and thats it.

Sorry, you assume wrong. I know, I couldn't credit it either. But please do go and ask your school how they would react to boys identifying as girls (or vice versa) and asking to use the opposite sex facilities, and report back. Maybe schools still vary.

Arguably you would feel worse changing in front of the same sex if they were homosexual (as they have attraction to your sex) than a transgender person that identifies as heterosexual?

Or, equally arguably, not. I'm happy to change in front of lesbian or straight women. I am not happy to change in front of gay men. My lesbian daughter does not want to change in front of the boys. I find it odd that you think she would Confused.

It's not about sexual attraction. It's about sex of bodies.

thekatydids · 06/02/2020 13:59

What have we come to that a girl needs to go to court to maintain her boundaries, to be allowed dignity and privacy?

^ This. I do hope that she wins.

Areyoureallylistening · 06/02/2020 14:01

I have name changed for this as I am a regular poster and my Dd has been through enough.

She goes to a large comprehensive in the South. Her best friend since primary school was a boy. They shared the same interests in music etc. He then became obsessed with RuPaul and started calling her his bitch. Then using other derogatory names. She told him it wasn’t funny. He told her she was a lesbian because she didn’t wear makeup. He said she should shave her arms, she was ugly. She couldn’t sing. But he was mostly funny and they had a laugh. As he started to become more extrovert and show more typically ‘camp’ traits he became more and more popular with the popular girls. He started a make-up blog and Dd found herself in a big popular group. This was great and she enjoyed it. The boy has a huge Instagram following showing off his new dresses and palettes of make-up. The other boys who had tended to avoid the group now were drawn in by the popular girls. He wears more make-up than the girls would be allowed at school, is the only boy in the girls yoga class and has huge girly party sleepovers at his house. These, of course, are all over social media as the parties to be at.

I won’t tell you exactly what happened next to protect my daughter but it involved social services and the police (who had enough evidence to charge if we wanted to). It was on the lines of making sure he had enough information on school girls on his phone to attract older men to do live stuff for him. Then showing them as a laugh.

My Dd told me. The school didn’t know what to do. The boy told the other girls to lie for him. They did. The girls bombarded Dd with stuff on social media about how he was misunderstood and how dare she. The pastoral team said he was vulnerable when it was my Dd was getting hit in the corridors for ‘grassing him up’. Every time she was hit we told her to report it but the pastoral team told her to stop obsessing over it and maybe she should move schools. Reading between the lines he has obviously spent a long time with them chatting.

She had to change games options and music classes. She has no friends as the popular girls now have changed the narrative and say it was just a ‘dick pic’. The boy takes every opportunity to smirk at her. He gave a very elaborate Oscar-winning apology to her and the school were happy. He knows he is invincible.

There are teachers that have seen through this and discretely keep an eye out for her. And a couple of girls who will chat on snapchat on the understanding that she won’t speak to them/make eye contact at school. She’s just had her 16th and didn’t want a party.

The only place she knows this boy won’t be in the toilets. So she spends lunchtimes in there.

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