Biological sex - a different view point

[ahenderson270]

geekxgirls.com/article.php?ID=12697

We don't often get the alternative side to the long-standing debate on here regarding biological sex to that presented in such a way that seems to without doubt, define male and female.

AIBU to ask if it's ok for us to try and consider beyond that? That perhaps if we try perhaps some middle ground can be discovered so the nasty name calling (TERF TRA etc ) can be put to bed and we can work towards unified solutions to issues affecting the 'person'?

nor anyone has any right to tell anyone else what their biological sex is.

This is the real crux of the issue. We actually do have the right (in some instances) to tell people not only what their sex is, but also to use that as a reason to exclude them from specific places. For example, if a boy tries to enter the girls changing room when I'm supervising pe today I will absolutely tell them they are a boy and therefore cannot go in to the girls changing room. I'd do it without hesitation because I am responsible for the safety, dignity and privacy of the girls in their changing room.

There was a recent thread where people with DSD specifically asked not to be included in the Gender and Sexuality debate.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3799859-LGBTQI

Surely, it is their right and nobody else’s to define themselves.

I don't believe there actually IS an "intersex community'. There are intersex organisations but they don't appear to exist to serve most of the various disparate and unrelated syndromes. Perhaps because so many of the syndromes are not remotely "inter" the sexes at all.

Many, perhaps most people with the various disorders or syndromes that are swept up under the so-called intersex umbrella are unaware of the other syndromes - and why would they be?
A woman with Turner's syndrome has no more in common with a man with PAIS, than a woman without the syndrome has with any other man.

Why would they? We don't expect special commonality between women with thyroid conditions and men with broken ankles.
You could contrive to label them both medical conditions under a similar banner if you were inventive enough, but there's no earthly reason why they should be lumped together really.

When I spoke to a relative about her Turner's syndrome and how she felt about it being used as an 'intersex' condition gotcha for trans rights, she seemed unaware that Turner's even WAS an 'intersex' condition. Noone had ever told her it was called an intersex condition. To her, it was just one of the health conditions she dealt with and went to clinics for. I go to my diabetes clinic, I see my joint replacement surgeon, I see a doctor about my Turner's.

Because Turner's is in no way inter the sexes.
It's entirely, unequivocally, a 100% female condition. She attends a Turner's support group once in a blue moon. She's never met or been invited to meet groups of men with Kleinfelters or 5ARD. Why would she? There would be no earthly point. And noone has thought to create such a group because it wouldn't serve the needs of either party.
Unless it was to serve an entirely unrelated agenda.

It wouldn't surprise me if most people with DSD syndromes are both unaware of most of the other syndromes bundled under 'intersex', or even that their own syndrome is under that banner.

People have always known who are the men and who are the women. Men have always known who are the men and who are the women. There has never been any ambiguity about who to deny the vote to, who to deny an education to, who to try and impregnate via rape, who to murder at birth, who to deny an abortion to, who to deny a promotion to, who to not listen to. There was never any question.
And now, just when women are finally getting somewhere with some kind of equality, when women are finally being allowed to make their mark on the world, it's suddenly become oh so complicated? It's suddenly so hard to tell who is male and who is female

Very well put.

I’m infertile and it doesn’t offend me in the slightest. It’s a statement of fact. If you birth babies, you are a female. I’m of sex that can bare children. The fact that I’m infertile doesn’t change that, because I’m also of the sex that menstruates and by fuck did I menstruate!

That's nice. However you might not have noticed but not all infertile people feel the same as you. I have a family member I am close to who gets really distressed about her dismissal as a woman as she hasn't been able to have children. I heard someone refer to her as "a barren woman" and the look on her face was painful to see. Glad you aren't sensitive to it but I'm sure you wouldn't want to deliberately upset someone who is adjusting to the fact that they might never be able to have children.

There is no third sex.

The facts don't change no matter how much you spin it, OP. There are adult human females and adult human males. For the most part, sex is observed before birth.

You've failed to comprehend entirely 1forsorrow

I wish logic was taught in schools.

The sentence If you are fertile there is no doubt about your chromosomes does NOT equate to If you are NOT fertile there IS doubt about your chromosomes.

Just as "All oranges are fruits" doesn't equate to "all fruits are oranges" and nor does it follow that "all non-oranges aren't fruits".

Fertility is only ONE OF the characteristics that make sex unequivocal.
As T0tallyFuckedUpFamily pointed out, there are OTHER characteristics than fertility that also place sex beyond doubt.
Menstruation being one.
Ovulation another.
Having ovaries, another.

you can have XY chromosomes and still birth a child

Just XY, or XXY?

I have a family member I am close to who gets really distressed about her dismissal as a woman as she hasn't been able to have children. I heard someone refer to her as "a barren woman" and the look on her face was painful to see. Glad you aren't sensitive to it but I'm sure you wouldn't want to deliberately upset someone who is adjusting to the fact that they might never be able to have children.

Presumably no one has suggested that the reason that she hasn't been able to have children is because she actually produces sperm from her testicles though? They know it's because her female reproductive system (ovaries, womb etc) doesn't work properly?

I'm sorry she has been through all that - the whole 'barren woman/not a real woman' thing is shit.

Just XY, or XXY?

Just XY - Swyer syndrome as already discussed. Apart from the extremely unusual case cited upthread, the people with this condition are infertile women. Some of those have given birth after hormone therapy to allow uterine development, and egg donation.

no one fully knows their own actual biological sex without examining their own chromosomes

This is hilarious. I have a background in genetics. I suggest you read up on genetics. You can check your own chromosomes by looking at what genitals you have. The very small number of intersex people are anomalies to this (but still chromosomally-speaking male or female) but for most chromosomes = genitals.

*Because Turner's is in no way inter the sexes.
It's entirely, unequivocally, a 100% female condition. She attends a Turner's support group once in a blue moon. She's never met or been invited to meet groups of men with Kleinfelters or 5ARD. Why would she? There would be no earthly point. And noone has thought to create such a group because it wouldn't serve the needs of either party.
Unless it was to serve an entirely unrelated agenda.

It wouldn't surprise me if most people with DSD syndromes are both unaware of most of the other syndromes bundled under 'intersex', or even that their own syndrome is under that banner.*

Good point.

And they’ve nothing in common with the trans community either, apart from being a “gotcha” for the conditions where observed sex at birth is different to actual sex.

DSDs by definition are a disorder of sexual development. There is usually impaired sexual function and/or impaired fertility. This does not negate nor invalidate individuals with DSDs but the inference that these many and varied conditions constitute “additional sexes” is disingenuous. Human beings can’t change sex, transwomen are males who are identifying as female, not people with a DSD.

I really wish people would not confuse the terms "sex" and "gender".

Your sex is fixed, whether XX, XY, or an intersex variant, it is determined by your chromosomes. You are born with it & can't change it.

Your gender you can choose. It is how you present yourself, how you identify, and how you would like the world to consider you. It is a complex concept bound up with social ideas of how many roles there are in adulthood & the behaviours associated with those - masculinity, femininity etc.

Some could say that in a western society with increasing fluidity around these attributes, gender becomes a bit meaningless - if anyone can wear anything and do any job and love any other person, does gender matter?

I'd say we've managed to have a discussion on whether it's possible to know someone's sex without much nasty name calling.
Well apart from one person calling everyone else rabid, belligerent and obsessive.

Well apart from one person calling everyone else rabid, belligerent and obsessive.

That would be the rabid, belligerent and obsessive poster.

That's nice. However you might not have noticed but not all infertile people feel the same as you. I have a family member I am close to who gets really distressed about her dismissal as a woman as she hasn't been able to have children.

Would you like to point out where ANY poster has said that a woman who is infertile is not a woman, on here? I think your concern for your family member has made you over sensitive when it comes to understanding what previous posters have stated regarding having babies. Her or my inability to bare children does not change facts.

Glad you aren't sensitive to it but I'm sure you wouldn't want to deliberately upset someone who is adjusting to the fact that they might never be able to have children.

To recognise reality does not mean I’m not sensitive to it and you’re being very presumptuous stating that. You’re also being very presumptuous thinking that you can speak for her and assume that she’ll be upset. You can no more speak for the feelings of a woman who is infertile, than I can for someone who is of a different race, colour or religion to me.

TRAS to females: There no biological sex
also
TRAs to females: Ciswomen have privilege

People have always known who are the men and who are the women. Men have always known who are the men and who are the women. There has never been any ambiguity about who to deny the vote to, who to deny an education to, who to try and impregnate via rape, who to murder at birth, who to deny an abortion to, who to deny a promotion to, who to not listen to. There was never any question. And now, just when women are finally getting somewhere with some kind of equality, when women are finally being allowed to make their mark on the world, it's suddenly become oh so complicated? It's suddenly so hard to tell who is male and who is female.

This. This completely.

I totally agree that there is a male sex and a female sex clearly determined by chromosomes (in most cases) and evidenced by genitalia. I just find it fascinating that there are other variables which may be relevant when we look at people who feel they are born into the wrong body - or may even possibly affect sexuality and many other aspects of our make up.

I do think the current trend to to declare oneself non-binary or 'I can choose each day' etc is in most cases probably an attention seeking device or maybe reflective of MH issues - as there has been such an enormous increase in people with these views. But that shouldn't detract from those who do have really genuine physical (or psychological) things going on that we still don't fully understand. And I do find it all really interesting......

I just find it fascinating that there are other variables which may be relevant when we look at people who feel they are born into the wrong body

But they're NOT relevant when looking at people who feel they're in the wrong body. Absolutely categorically NOT RELEVANT - THATS THE POINT.

Here are a couple of up-to-date links to Intersex people's view on being used by Trans activists:

mrkhvoice.com/index.php/2019/12/18/what-is-dignity/

twitter.com/intersexfacts/status/1208346897108361218

Some PPs asked for evidence of this. Read it. And stop using Intersex people as ammunition.

I just find it fascinating that there are other variables which may be relevant when we look at people who feel they are born into the wrong body

All the Gender Identity Clinics in the world say there is no overlap. They know, because they used to test as standard until it became clear that it was pointless. DSDs are not connected to transgenderism at all.

Do you know what IS a proven overlap in the sudden onset of gender dysphoria in children and young people? Autism. But funnily enough, the trans lobby are pretty silent on that.

YABU to expect a reasonable debate on it.

I dont know Minty I am all up for a reasonable debate but that requires a reasonable argument.
I am afraid stating intersex people exist therefore anyone can choose there sex is not a reasonable argument.
The OP fell at the first hurdle.