Biological sex - a different view point

[ahenderson270]

geekxgirls.com/article.php?ID=12697

We don't often get the alternative side to the long-standing debate on here regarding biological sex to that presented in such a way that seems to without doubt, define male and female.

AIBU to ask if it's ok for us to try and consider beyond that? That perhaps if we try perhaps some middle ground can be discovered so the nasty name calling (TERF TRA etc ) can be put to bed and we can work towards unified solutions to issues affecting the 'person'?

@Thelnebriati, 2011 sources are a bit dated for my liking, but anyway.

Intersex and trans should certainly not be conflated, but there are times, including Trump's America, when their interests and rights are closely aligned:

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/oct/24/intersex-trump-transgender-policy

AIBU to ask if it's ok for us to try and consider beyond that?

Yes - YABU, because it’s already been answered in so many really great, factual and succinct ways so many many times on this forum already. There is nothing to consider “beyond”. It just “is”. It’s tiresome now.

@Bunnyfuller

Too true! The coordinated blitz bombing to stifle and suffocate alterative views on these threas always amuses me! That's how fear operates.

Another round of typical male justification threads? Mammals are sexually dimorphic, as are most other mammals. Go argue with several million years of evolution and grow up. Sex is, gender does. Someone wanting to dress up does not make a female and does not give them the right to force themselves on real females.

Oh and now anyone who doesn't tow the accepted party line on sex and gender is part of a 'rabid pack'. Fuck off with your insults @Bunnyfuller and by the way, who are you to instruct MN to shut down threads because you don't agree with what people are saying on them?

@suggestionsplease1
The sources are several years old because this is not a new problem for them. Somehow you think that lessens the argument they made?

You have just ignored the voices of intersex people.

as are most other animals.

I've given birth I know what sex I am, but I knew what sex I was from the first time I was told 'only boys can do that'

I thought the whole point of the trans debate is that it's about gender rather than biological sex

Well, exactly.

OP, to really move things forward constructively, trans activists would need to acknowledge there is a conflict of interest between the rights of trans women and women, and enter a dialogue to resolve this fairly.

Diversions such as arguments that sex isn’t binary are unhelpful and don’t assist in resolving the areas of disagreement, as well as being scientific horseshit

This is AIBU. Do the MNHQ rules re discussing trans still apply? Some posts here might be vulnerable and it would be terrible if they were screen shotted, put on Twitter, the posters named as TERFs and were widely reported to HQ so that posters received strikes and deletions.

Can any poster just ask for a thread to be deleted?

Wow that's new.

The request to delete is not to do with difference of opinions, it’s to do with the rude, bullying and patronising ganging up that takes place every time someone dares say anything in favour of trans women @PineappleCocktail

Difference of opinion, like SOME religious people believe same s3x relationships are unnatural (we know they’re not, but biology....).

I’m with you op, there’s far more we don’t know, than we do know. Ignorance and fear have persecuted fellow humans for far too long and I ain’t getting on the train.

Well, I'm sure anyone can ask - and MNHQ can decide whether they agree, or whether they think the request is goady not quite 'in the spirit'

I’ve only ever had positive experiences with trans women

You are fortunate then bunnyfuller - not everyone has had only positive experiences of trans women. I’m for one am not willing to take the risk of shutting up about this issue like a good little woman and seeing mine and my dd’s rights eroded for the sake of being “tolerant”. Don’t you see the bigger picture here - what could happen?

You need to educate yourself you silly silly woman.

actually no one fully knows their own actual biological sex without examining their own chromosomes

No, because:

1. Someone who is phenotypically female (for example) with no developmental differences should be treated as female.

1. The number of people this applies to who will be genotypically male (for example) is tiny.

1. It is bonkers to try to discredit a classification system so clearly understood and well evidenced that everyone knows it because of a tiny number of developmental disorders.

No fact this biologist said was wrong but they draw the deranged conclusion that biological sex doesn't exist. There is no Scientific consenus supporting that conclusion- it makes climate change deniers look mainstream.

1. None of this is relevant to the discussion on Gender Dysphoria. The causes, symptoms, frequency and policy implications are not trelated. It's just an attempt to politicise Science, and medical conditions, to justify social control.

I see the trans ideology extremists have arrived, to tell us all to stop telling truths.

OP, to really move things forward constructively, trans activists would need to acknowledge there is a conflict of interest between the rights of trans women and women, and enter a dialogue to resolve this fairly.
This. The third space option is one we frequently suggest, its usually rejected.

Posting that 'no one really knows what sex they are' on a parenting website is ridiculous. Using intersex people to support that claim is insulting to intersex people.

Like they say about foreigners - if you’re so afraid of the taking your place it says more about you than them. I’ve only ever had positive experiences with trans women but by God

Respectfully, I don’t think you have grasped the issues at play at all.

OP I agree, I'd love there to be some middle ground and to get away from the nasty name calling.

I'm a woman- I haven't had any investigations to confirm that, but I have been pregnant twice. DH is a man, as evidenced by sperm production and offspring.

Gender identity is a whole different ball game oops kettle of fish oops thing. I'd say I'm gender fluid- I was a tomboy as a child, very feminine and a young woman, and totally agender now.

Who put you in charge Bunnyfuller?

People can live their life how they like but you can’t change sex. If you are XY or XX there is naff all you can do to change it.

every time someone dares say anything in favour of trans women

The OP isn't about trans women, it's a question about biological sex. One which has been aired sufficiently often to suggest the OP may just possibly be being a bit disingenuous.

@Thelnebriati Thanks, but I don't think you speak for me and I don't think you should try; it's reminiscent of some of the patriarchy-light, misogynistic attempts to control and supress.

Intersex is a total misnomer that refers to males and females with sex development disorders.

In this case, the transcult with its obsession with changing the meanings of words is taking advantage of people thinking that intersex means what it sounds like.

I’ve only ever had positive experiences with trans women

So have I. You don't need to have any problem with trans people to see the madness of self-ID and to worry about the prevelence of ROGD.

Just ask some of the transwomen who oppose self-ID.

I’m with you op, there’s far more we don’t know, than we do know.

You’re right there, but I’m sure many of the GC feminists can educate you. 😁