Biological sex - a different view point

[ahenderson270]

geekxgirls.com/article.php?ID=12697

We don't often get the alternative side to the long-standing debate on here regarding biological sex to that presented in such a way that seems to without doubt, define male and female.

AIBU to ask if it's ok for us to try and consider beyond that? That perhaps if we try perhaps some middle ground can be discovered so the nasty name calling (TERF TRA etc ) can be put to bed and we can work towards unified solutions to issues affecting the 'person'?

ahenderson270 nobody who has carried four naturally conceived pregnancies to full term is intersex. That poster is correct.

Sorry: The organisations that represent the intersex community have repeatedly asked not to be drawn into the trans debate.

refs please!

nobody who has carried four naturally conceived pregnancies to full term is intersex. That poster is correct.

Last lot were twins!! My uterus is pretty damn amazing ItWill

if your chromosomes indicated otherwise you would dismiss that because your birthing of children determines sex? I'm not having a go I'm genuinely

The ability to gestate ones own children requires one to be a large gamete producer. Only biological women do that.

A human cannot have both small AND large gametes.

HTH

OP the existence of intersex conditions is not a different approach or news to most people who post on here.

Just because there may be more than one variable between two categories of things (in this case biological sex) does not mean the categories are meaningless or not distinct. It's the same with death, there are a number of different variables to determine whether someone is dead including brain death and respiratory / circulatory cessation. That doesn't mean there are people who are neither dead nor alive or that everyone is on a spectrum of being alive and being dead.

TRAs seem to think that disorders of sexual development are a kind of gotcha argument that people can change sex or not be one sex or the other. It's not.

The current 'debate' about sex has nowhere to go because it's not a matter of opinion. Humans are sexually dimorphic, we have two immutable sexes, and within that there are a small number of people who have a variety of DSDs aka intersex conditions.

Funnily enough, most people on Mumsnet (theres a clue in the name) don't easily fall prey to disingenuous pieces trying to make sex confusing.

suggestionsplease1 This is from 2011, there are more examples if you need to google.

ihra.org.au/13651/isgd-and-the-appropriation-of-intersex/

isna.org/faq/transgender/

Someone asked me about this as a sort of gotcha on twitter. Ah, but have you had your karyotype tested huh? because if not then you have literally no idea what reproductive sex you are apparently.

I underwent fertility treatment, I have had a rather uncomfortable few encounters with the giant lightsaber dildoprobe, during the course of which I've literally watched my own ovaries on a screen, seen my own follicles and eggs. I have no doubt at all that I am of the sex which produces ova (large gametes).

That's lovely spartacuslangclegicus!

If I was actually intersex I’d be really pissed off with the trans community hijacking it to prove their own agenda.

Trans is not the same as intersex. Equating the two is doing a disservice to all.

How can you open something up for discussion of an alternative viewpoint when it's a fact.

We're on mumsnet. That's what it says. But here I come alone and tell you I'm jog on Mumsnet right now, I'm on netmums. Now, would you like to open that up to discussion for alternative views? We can say they're both a forum, they both involve the internet and people typing, but as long as Mumsnet.com is written in the address box, that's the fact if the site I'm in.

And this could obviously be expanded quite widely. Fact just is. There are two biological classes of humans, including almost everybody in the tiny intersex community - to whom I apologise for again bringing them into this discussion - and that's it.

Whichever class we are (and always will be), we can wear and adorn our bodies with whatever we like.

Just because there may be more than one variable between two categories of things (in this case biological sex) does not mean the categories are meaningless or not distinct.

Most human beings have two legs, we are a bipedal species. Some people are born with lower limb differences and may have one, or no functioning lower limbs. This does not mean that humans are no bipedal.

Oh the closing post to this is just great. 'Kindness and respect' eh. Where's the kindness and respect for those of us who dare to disagree that TWAW? Is it respectful to give us the label 'cis' when we don't want to be labelled? Or to force us into sharing our safe spaces with men? Is it kind to try to use biological terms no one other than a biologist would understand to try to force us into doubting the fact that we are women? How about campaigning to have a mastectomy ahead of women who have cancer? Threatening suicide if you don't get your way?

*log on, not jog on!

I also find it strange that John has reached the age of 40 fathered 3 kids then suddenly realised hes intersex changed his name to Jane and now lives as a woman.

I thought the whole point of the trans debate is that it's about gender rather than biological sex. It's a question of whether you believe someone of one gender can feel that they belong to the other gender, or indeed that they are the other gender. Correct me if I'm wrong?
So then I suppose the question is what is the difference between gender and sex?

Most human beings have two legs, we are a bipedal species. Some people are born with lower limb differences and may have one, or no functioning lower limbs. This does not mean that humans are no bipedal.

Quite. Nor does it mean that human legs are on a spectrum between no legs and an infinite number of legs. (eww)

Dear OP. I respectfully decline your request to participate in your delusion. Please respect women's spaces. Not everything is about what you want. Other people have feelings too.

gender
/ˈdʒɛndə/
Learn to pronounce
noun
1.
either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones. The term is also used more broadly to denote a range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female.
"a condition that affects people of both genders"

Sex on the other hand

either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and most other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions.

OP, I think if you replace the word “gender” with “outdated sex role stereotype”, you’ll find everything much easier to understand. “Sex”, by contrast, is biological, bimodal and immutable.

Does OP understand that intersex doesn't mean "between sexes" and that people with a DSD are still either male or female?

Like the human with one leg is still human?

What's this got to do with gender anyway? FA, as far as I can tell.

I don’t understand why so many people seem to have such trouble distinguishing between biological sex and gender.

Me neither.

I decided that I have pushed enough small humans out of my vagina. If I'm actually a man they should have told me and I would have worn a condom or had a vasectomy instead of having a coil fitted.

This will go nowhere. The pack has arrived.
@MNHQ please delete the thread.

Talk about 1 track minds. I actually didn’t give aficionados about any of this until I read a few of these rabid threads. I’m now firmly for opposing the belligerent and obsessive tirades against such a small minority.

Like they say about foreigners - if you’re so afraid of the taking your place it says more about you than them. I’ve only ever had positive experiences with trans women but by God - how much intolerance from so many who proselytise tolerance.

And no, I won’t respond to nitpicking at my wording, or demands for proof. Those posts are proof in themselves.

Cheers, @MNHQ