To think the use of prostitutes just isn't that big a deal?

[Hihothedairyo]

Now here me out first, I do not mean married men who use prostitutes without the knowledge/consent of their wives/partners. Those are scum, I have been cheated on in that way before so believe me when I say I do not agree with that.

However, I've seen and heard a lot of people (including friends of mine) who believe that men in general who use prostitutes are scum.

Personally, I think that, provided you are sure the person you are having sex with is not being trafficked, then you are really just two consenting adults having sex. Yes there is money exchanged, but nobody is forcing the sex worker to do this job (in this scenario, I know that DOES happen).

Should a person who's say, 30 years old and still a virgin, and now feels their too old and too inexperienced to go out and find a woman to have sex with them, not be able to use a service that a woman is willingly providing? What about someone with some form of disability that wants sex but doesn't have the confidence or whatever to get it normally?

I've got a good friend who lost his virginity to a prostitute, and has visited them a few other times also. He's in a happy relationship now and does not use them and never has while in any relationship. I don't feel that him having used them was wrong, but he is not open about having used them at all and I'm pretty sure his partner doesn't know that he ever has.

I just feel there is far too much judgement and hate towards people who are, in reality, just doing something that has been done since time began. And I see no wrong in it, I imagine I'm in the minority here though.

"It is buying a woman's body.

Think about that for a minute."

I have thought about it. I think it is very silly to say that prostitution is buying a woman's body. How is it buying a woman's body? A man isn't buying a woman's body, he's buying a service. Just like any service you have to pay for it. A taxi driver isn't going to consent to driving you unless money was involved. It's a serious matter if you force someone to work for you without consent or payment: modern day slavery.
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No way could I be with a man who had ever used prostitutes, the thought makes me sick.

Apart from anything else, what does that say about their understanding of female desire? That it simply doesn't matter?

We absolutely wouldn't be on the same page in bed. Not to mention they'd technically be a rapist in my opinion.

Lots of misogynists, most of them sadly women. like to frame sex work as ‘buying a woman’s body’ because they think woman are objects who can be bought and sold.

What’s actually happening is women are selling a service. This does not affect or compromise their rights over their own bodies, or their bodily autonomy.

Women should be able to engage in sex work in a way which is safe, legal, and gives them the full protection of the law.

@nevertoomuchmarmite
I agree. It is a service, the difference being that the man has to pay in cash up front and he's not going to get any of the money back if he's not happy with the service. None of this invoice me and you might get the money in 30 days.

There's a brothel in Ellesmere Port where the man isn't allowed to see the woman before he's parted with money. He's not allowed to see if he fancies her before paying. He can pay £10 just to see her and that's deducted from the total if he decides to stay. He won't get the money back if he walks out.

Also there's one woman there who doesn't like men ejaculating inside her even though he has to use a regular condom. So she'll tell him she wants him to ejaculate outside her body. They can tell the man what they will and won't accept.

They're not having sex because they want to, they're doing it for money...that is not true consent and also what about the mans actions? He is having sex with a woman who he knows isn't doing it because she wants to, he's viewing women as commodities and objects to purchase and the fact is that this affects women and girls in an awful way. Also a huge number of them ARE trafficked or being exploited by a pimp, this is just reality! Plus the abuse and rape they endure, a man who views a woman as something to purchase the use of does not respect that woman and they usually do as they wish to them

@h3av3n
There's a lot to what you have said, but you have been told lies when you have been told 'they usually do as they wish to them'.

You speak about these women in incredibly cold terms op. As if they are objects. I think you need to focus on yourself in terms of your own compassion and empathy and your understanding of prostitution. You don’t seem to have an understanding of any complexity in prostitution. Would you do it? If not why not? I suggest you start from there and then make up your mind about how you really feel for these
women.

All the research & stats show that the majority of sex workers are mostly doing it because they have an addiction or are trafficked. That's not OK.

If sex is just a “service” is rape just “theft” then? Think about what you’re saying.

I agree with you. No different to paying for premium sex services online (like onlyfans or private snapchat). I think the word prostitution makes people think of underage immigrants who turn to sex work out of desperation and a life on the streets. But it’s not always like that! What about people who want some extra income, recognise that there are people out there willing to pay for sex/sexual content, and thus a business agreement takes place? How is that wrong?

I disagree that it perpetuates the idea that women’s bodies are a commodity. Yes, some men have that awful disgusting attitude, and try to manipulate sex workers. But in other cases it’s actually empowering, has nothing to do with self respect and it’s just somebody (remember not to assume that all prostitutes are female) making money off somebody else’s desperation, for lack of a better word.

@Muminabun
I have more compassion and empathy because I am prepared to look behind the false statistics. People who tweet a statistic they like without checking it don't have compassion and empathy. I know they think they do but they're just getting caught up in a drama. So I have an in-depth knowledge of prostitution in Britain and Ireland.

How do you know that I'm not doing it already? And if I'm not doing it it might be to do with the police arresting women who work together for safety as if they were pimps? This happens in Britain, Ireland and Sweden despite sex workers being supposedly decriminalized in Ireland and Sweden.

@CSIblonde
The stats don't show that for Britain. What people do is look at research on drug-addicted street prostitutes and pretend that it applies to all prostitutes. In Rachel Moran's book Paid For she states that a Ruhama report says that 38% of Irish prostitutes have attempted suicide. If you read this Ruhama report they say this figure comes from a study by Ann-Marie O’Connor in 1994.

If you look at the study it says nothing about suicide. This statistic is found on a different study by Ann-Marie O’Connor and others published in 1999 which is research on a small group of drug-addicted street prostitutes in a part of Dublin. They had numerous problems, drug addiction, street prostitution and arrest of themselves and family members.

So Ruhama are liars, they are hiding the truth. I can give you other examples. Street prostitutes have only ever been a small fraction of prostitutes, no more than 10%.

@Elsiebear90
Why would rape be like theft? Rape is like slavery. If you meet a woman in the park and you offer her money to come back to your house and do your ironing for you that's fine. You have bought her consent. If you force her into domestic servitude that is a very serious matter much more serious than deprivation of money. That is modern day slavery. Slavery is quite rightly reviled around the world.

@jennywhitehorses you’re comparing apples and oranges, plenty of people are coerced and pressured into doing some cleaning, it’s simply not comparable to coercing or forcing someone to have sex with you.

No one suffers harm by being pressured to do the washing up or ironing when they don’t want to, but plenty of people suffer psychological harm by being pressured and coerced into having sex. You’re not taking into account the emotions attached to and psychological harm inflicted on people who have sex with people they don’t want to have sex with and do things sexually they don’t want to do, which is the reality of the vast majority of prostitution. Very very few people can truly and healthily separate sex from emotions, so to call it a service compatible to ironing is absurd imo.

@h3av3n Also a huge number of them ARE trafficked or being exploited by a pimp, this is just reality!
@CSIblonde All the research & stats show that the majority of sex workers are mostly doing it because they have an addiction or are trafficked. That's not OK
@Elsiebear90 which is the reality of the vast majority of prostitution.
Usual generalizations without any evidence to back them up.

Firstly while there are women trafficked into prostitution in the UK it is rare. Determined efforts by the police to find it have largely failed. And there is very little evidence that many are pimped.
here

All the research & stats show the majority of sex workers…. are mostly doing it because they have an addiction or are trafficked
Where are these stats? While it is true that many street workers (who are roughly 10% of the prostitute total) are addicted those working indoors are not.

Anyone who claims the vast majority is making it up. It is impossible to get a truly representative sampling of prostitutes so you cannot make that claim. You are simply making it up.

@exponential I was not talking about women forced into prostitution, I was talking about the women prostituting themselves for whatever reason, who are having sex with people they don’t want to have sex with and doing things sexually they don’t want to do for money. No matter what someone’s motivations for sex work, making yourself do things sexually you don’t want to do and wouldn’t do unless you were paid cannot be good for someone’s mental health and is not comparable to doing the washing up or ironing as another poster said.

I am sure there are tiny minority of women who genuinely enjoy having sex with anyone who pays them, but I would imagine the vast majority of women prostituting themselves are forcing themselves to do things sexually they don’t want to do so they can get paid, which is not comparable to doing ironing, for the reasons listed in my previous post.

@Elsiebear90 there you go again I am sure there are tiny minority…but I would imagine the vast majority …

What makes you sure…or imagine..you have no evidence besides your assumption?

What is your basis of saying it is a tiny minority? While it is not possible to get a truly representative sample of prostitutes there is a lot of evidence that a great many actually enjoy their work. So see for instance here where many internet based prostitutes (now the majority) express satisfaction with their work as do the majority of the nearly 200 current and ex- prostitutes who have contributed to various threads on Mumsnet. No doubt you would claim these women are a tiny minority and unrepresentative-but how do you know? here

Of course there are prostitutes who have or had a horrible time but really being sure or imagining are simply not good enough. You imply do not have the evidence to back up your assertions.

@exponential if the majority of prostitutes enter the profession purely because they want to profit from their love of sex with anyone who will pay why are prostitution rates significantly higher in countries where women are extremely vulnerable to poverty and violence? Why are rates much lower in countries which are proven to be much safer for women in terms of violence and finances? If the vast majority of prostitutes are happy with their job and enjoy it you wouldn’t see such stark differences in rates between first world countries where most women have the safety and ability to earn enough money to be comfortable without resorting to sex work vs third world ones where prostitution may be the only way they can earn enough to support themselves and their families.

“A guidance document by the UK NSWP (2008a) on the UK’s migrant sex work population estimates that around 37 per cent of UK commercial sex workers are migrants with as many as 52 per cent of migrants coming from Eastern Europe.

in a study by Bindel et al. (2012) where 72 per cent of the sex workers interviewed reported experiences of physical, sexual and verbal violence during childhood, past experiences of abuse were said to compound feelings of worthlessness.

In Jeal and Salisbury’s (2004) study, they found one-third of interviewees had left education at the age of 14 years or younger. Similarly, Bindel et al. (2012) found 39 per cent of respondents had no training or formal qualifications.”

Taken from a review of literature on prostitution, not one isolated study into one group of internet based prostitutes:

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/303927/A_Review_of_the_Literature_on_sex_workers_and_social_exclusion.pdf

@Elsiebear90 You are misrepresenting (again) what the evidence says. Of course prostitutes become prostitutes not through their love of sex but because of the relatively large amounts of money for hours worked and the flexible working which enables them to look after their kids (many are single mothers) study or pursue other interests .See here here here for a variety of reasons

In other countries often to avoid grinding rural poverty etc.

While a few enjoy the sex, some hate it and some find it boring (like going to the dentist or cleaning behind the fridge as some Mumsnet prostitutes memorably put it) the major reason is financial. Many enjoy their jobs even if they don’t particularly enjoy the sex.

As you mention the better social support there is especially for single mothers the fewer who are in financial straits which is a major reason why some (but not all) enter prostitution.

I suppose what you are trying to claim that many UK prostitutes are migrants is that they are trafficked. There are many migrants in the hospitality and catering industry (many from Eastern Europe) –are they trafficked? Go to any petrol station-round my way many of the staff are non-Brits-trafficked? No they come here because they can get better money than back home.

Bindel is hardly a reliable source-but its mainly street prostitutes who have physical, sexual and verbal violence during childhood but Bindel (as well as other abolitionists) dishonestly generalize from the experience of street prostitutes to all prostitutes. So for instance one Mumsnet prostitute said I’m a prostitute, and honest to God I’m absolutely fucking sick of being told that I’m being abused in my work or that I must have some kind of childhood trauma in my background. It’s just so insulting to see these kinds of broad-brush assumptions over and over and over again here
The Jeal & Salisbury 2014 paper to which you refer here was a study of street prostitutes in Bristol, their 2007 study of parlour based prostitutes in Bristol here showed that they were better educated than street prostitutes and studies of those who are independent escorts operating via the internet many have degrees here

As another Mumsnet prostitute said Anyway, I will sum up thusly: when I hear "facts" bandied about about prostitution, I am often shocked and think "What the fuck are they talking about? That's not my experience and I don't know anybody who has that experience." When I read "90% of prostitutes are trafficked, pimped, and abused" it literally sounds as bizarre as something like, "90% of the women on mumsnet are alcoholics here

Women who sell/exchange sex are disproportionately disadvantaged. Who when they are asked as children what they want to do for a living say they want to sell sex? Also, I haven't yet met a woman who has paid for sex.. Fucking think about the inequality

@exponential you’re missing the point entirely, I’m not saying most of them are trafficked or abused or pimped, I’m saying most of them are having sex they don’t enjoy and don’t want to have so they can get paid for whatever reason. And we know that people who have sex they don’t enjoy and don’t want to have for whatever reason often suffer psychological harm because of it, which is not comparable to doing the ironing when you don’t really want to do it as you and other posters keep protesting. Sex and ironing or cleaning are two very very different activities and are not comparable. How many of us would do a bit of ironing if we got paid £500? Most of us I would imagine, how many would have sex with their next door neighbour for £500? Hardly any, and there’s a reason for that.

@exponential and before you say I have no evidence they suffer worse mental health:

“This analysis highlights the disproportionate mental health burden experienced by women in sex work, particularly among those identifying as a sexual/gender minority, those who use drugs, and those who work in informal indoor venues and street/public spaces. This study was conducted in Metropolitan Vancouver, Canada, where sex workers come from diverse backgrounds, encompassing a range of ages, sexual orientations, education, income levels, and gender expression, although the majority identify as women”

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5735638/

“Psychological distress is higher in women working in sex industry.”

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5806326/

Exposure to paid or unpaid sexual violence may result in symptoms of PTSD. Most prostitution includes the traumatic stressors that are categorized as DSM-IV criterion A1 of the diagnosis of PTSD

In nine countries, across widely varying cultures, we found that two-thirds of 854 women in prostitution had symptoms of PTSD (Farley et al., 2003) at a severity that was comparable to treatment-seeking combat veterans (Weathers et al., 1993), battered women seeking shelter (Houskamp and Foy, 1991; Kemp et al., 1991), rape survivors (Bownes et al., 1991) and refugees from state-organized torture (Ramsay et al., 1993).

It is a clinical and a statistical error to assume that most women in prostitution have consented. Instead of the question, "Did she voluntarily consent to prostitution?" the more relevant question would be, "Did she have real alternatives to prostitution for survival?" The incidence of homelessness (75%) among our respondents and their desire to get out of prostitution (89%) reflect their lack of options for escape (Farley et al., 2003).

Until it is understood that prostitution and trafficking can appear voluntary but are not really free choices made from a range of options, it will be difficult to garner adequate support to assist those who wish to escape but have no other economic choices.

www.psychiatrictimes.com/prostitution-sexual-violence/page/0/1

Women have been selling sex since god was a boy. If and only if i woman wants to use her body to pay the bills, then it is fine. I had a neighbour who choose to pe a prostitue in Germany, her Husband was in the forces, so they had enough money and military housing so were never going to be homless or starve. She was the boss in their marriage so wasnt being forced into it by him, he used to get the mick taken out of him by the lads, he hated it but it was her choice.