To stop helping high school aged child in the morning?

[user1333796]

Year 8, second year high school.

Every morning I wake DD up nicely.
Every morning I wake up DD again half an hour later, not so nicely.
Every morning I have to hurry her on, ask her why she isn't dressed yet, tell her we will be late.
Every morning I have to remind her to brush her teeth and sort her bag. When we are walking out the front door she has always failed to do at least one of these things and has to go back inside while the rest of us freeze on the street waiting.
Every morning I make her lunch. I've said she has to do it herself, but in the morning rush, if I don't do it she just won't have time to make one and then I have to add money on to her account which costs me twice as much and teaches her nothing.
Every morning we are stressed and I'm dragging her younger siblings to school in a rush and only just making it because of her. The younger siblings are that much younger that I do everything for them too, so its not that they are more independent.

I keep threatening eldest that I won't even wake her the first time anymore and she will just have to be very late and explain to her form tutor herself. I haven't actually followed through because I'm not sure if it is age expected and that would be neglectful.

Just before anyone suggests it, she definitely isn't up all night on a mobile phone or other device. I have caught her secretly listening to music on headphones or reading very late, but this isn't every night so it's not a case of needing earlier nights imo.

Anyone care to tell me how much they do for the same, or similar age secondary child? Please say age and year. Would I be unreasonable to leave when the rest are ready to fend for herself?

Hi @user1333796 I've also got a 12 year old daughter who turns 13 in June and is in Yr 8. I'm shocked by how much input your DD appears to need be getting; this is how it works for my DD:

The evening before, DD showers and packs her school bag (it saves a lot of stress in the morning - realising that something is missing the night before rather than 10 minutes before leaving the house means we have plenty of time to find the item, or an alternative). Her alarm goes off at 6:15am and DD gets up right away - the rest of us (me, DH and younger DD who will be 11 next month) don't get up till 7am. DD1 makes herself some breakfast and a cup of tea and watches YouTube or TikTok on her phone whilst she eats & drinks.

She then washes, brushes her teeth and gets dressed. She does her hair and double checks her school bag. The rest of us are getting up about now and DH makes packed lunches for himself and the girls (but if he’s had to leave for work early, they are perfectly capable of making their own).

She and I will usually then have a quick chat about what she’s got coming up that day (play rehearsals, School Council meetings, going to a friend’s house etc.) and will arrange where and when I’ll collect her for a lift home if she’s going to miss the bus, then she’s off. A couple of minutes’ walk to the bus stop then a 20-minute journey and she arrives at school with around 15-20 minutes to spare.

DD1 hates to be late, which does help to motivate her in the mornings, but she hasn’t leapt directly from me doing everything to doing everything herself – as with most things, she has taken on one new task at a time over the years, until we arrived at this stage where she’s quite self-sufficient.

Reading this back, I worried for a moment that it sounded like a ‘stealth boast’, but on further reflection, I think my eldest DD is quite usual in her independence in getting herself up and out of the door on time.

In your shoes, I think I would start off by timetabling your DD’s morning to the minute, since she doesn’t appear to be able to do it herself (i.e. 7:10am – make packed lunch, 7:20am get dressed etc.) and would get her to work with me on this so that she can’t later complain that she hadn’t understood what was required of her etc.. With regards to getting her out of bed, I would go into her bedroom and wake her up (nicely, but firmly) and insist that she gets out of bed and walks with you to the bathroom/kitchen (or wherever she’s due to be first) and would remove the duvet (after a warning) if she resisted and would not leave until she did as she was asked.

Has your DD ever been assessed for ADD/ADHD, or has any teacher ever suggested dyscalculia or dyslexia or dyspraxia may be a problem for her?

There is a lot of forgetting and complete lack of focus going on, a lot of distraction, suggesting executive function or working memory issues.

If she has always (or even a lot in the past year or so) been a featherhead, had issues focusing, forgets homework, is inclined to blow off incidents like being late or not handing in homework and getting an F, or going without lunch, then she may need help/coaching and a different approach from simply the boot to the arse.

Someone who ignores or turns off an alarm and goes back to sleep on a weekday might have a problem with goal-setting and modifying behaviour in order to attain a specific goal, or might have a problem where difficulty in motivating herself has led to a sense of failure and a lot of anxiety about timekeeping and remembering things, creating a vicious cycle where every element feeds all the other elements. Can't remember/self motivate -> sense of failure, sense of dread > desire to shut her eyes and not deal with it -> being late -> sense of failure ---> avoidant behaviour.

She may not have the same potential for motivation, effort, or learning from mistakes that other 12 year olds have if she has ADD /ADHD, and may find it hard to rein in impulsivity or hyperactivity, or introduce a modicum of organisation into her life. She loses keys, disappears down musical rabbit holes, forgets her lunch, sleeps despite her alarm, forgets basic hygiene, it hasn't occurred to her to pack her bag the night before..... Efforts from others to push her in the right direction may only result in mutual frustration, and a continued sense of failure and anxiety on her part can lead to feelings of deep despondency and even depression.

Does she wash (shower or bath) willingly and regularly (daily)? Remember to use anti-perspirant daily?
Forgetting an important component of personal hygiene like tooth brushing is a little worrying. Many 12 year olds have by that age made it their life's mission to put their best foot forward when it comes to their appearance.

You could try to help her with her goal setting and ask her to come up with some solutions to the morning crisis points you have identified.
Ask her if she perceives it all to be a problem, and if she does, ask her what she thinks the problem specifically consists of.
Brainstorm solutions together:
Bag and lunch packed in the evening.
Spare Thermos kept at home.
Checklist on her phone that she needs to look at and share with you at end of school so she doesn't leave a Thermos in school.
Toothbrush kept downstairs - can do teeth in kitchen or downstairs loo.

I assume there is a DH there, and he has to be part of this too. You and he must both consistently put your shoulder to the work here. If no DH please ignore.

Has DD ever read any uplifting (for want of a better word) or positive or encouraging young teen manuals like 'The Care and Keeping of You', a title by American Girl publications, available online? It's very upbeat about hygiene and getting your act together wrt periods, supplies you will need, getting enough sleep, good nutrition, etc. Definitely suggests that someone aged 12 should be taking pride in moving from childhood to teenager, not trying to keep one foot in childhood and childish ways. Might be worth a try if not.

I highly recommend having DD take part in household chores, which she can do alongside you and DH (if present). There should be some sort of firm rota and you will need to be disciplined about getting her to participate, dishing out realistic praise and encouragement as she works. She should be able to do mundane chores with you - keep her room clean and tidy, empty or load the dishwasher, any pet care (supervise so pet won't suffer hunger, lack of water), checking for supplies like milk, bread, spaghetti, onions, other items that will go on the weekly shopping list, and should definitely be responsible for her own laundry for the entire cycle (clothes to basket, into washing machine/dryer/ onto clothes line/indoor rack, folding, ironing, putting away) with your supervision beginning at this age. She should be playing an integral part in the mundane household tasks.

She needs some responsibility op. She is well old enough to get herself ready without handholding. You realise in just a year or two she will probably come home and say she has a boyfriend. I would be very concerned if she could manage that but cant remember to brush her teeth.

If she doesnt feel the consequences then how else is she ever going to learn?

Let her get late for school or miss school and then call in letting them know why. That will get her act together pretty quick.
It's really not difficult, make her pack her own stuff the night before? She knows what she needs, so she should be able to do that. It's the basics which she is completely failing at which is concerning. It's really easy stuff, she has no consequences to that so why should she try.

We fall when there are people there to catch us. In other words, set a date in a couple of weeks, when she will have to do this all herself. Make sure she knows how to make a pack up, pack bag etc and then stick to that date. My Y8 boy gets himself up, makes a pack up and gets himself to school because I leave the house for work an hour before. He also irons his own uniform at the weekend. My Y6 girl gets her own things ready too. It's doable but painful at the start.

I don't think there's anything wrong with getting your y8 child up in the morning actually - I'm not sure why there's a rush to let them sort themselves out. They have to eventually.

I'd stop with the packed lunches myself - make your life easier.

I get all of my children up in the morning - they've said they like me coming in and saying good morning. I have to yell a few times at my ds (y7) as he's reluctant to get out of bed, but that's fine.

I don't get all of this "set them up to fail, then they'll learn" stuff.

Dear god what is it with MN where a 12/13 who doesn't want to get up and is sloth like in the morning should be assessed for ASD or ADHD. It's that or dementia for a shitty 50+ aduult

I help mine too much but we do it all the night before so mornings are not too rushed. They pack bags and everything they need the night before. We do lunches the night before too. Mine generally get up themselves as both have alarms (google home minis). I hope I'm setting them up with good habits but don't know what would happen if I'm not there to nag.

My Y9 DD has been getting ready by herself since Y7, I do nothing for her and she usually gives me a shout in the morning as I give her a lift to a friends house and she walks from there.
Not sure I’ll be so lucky with DS but when I’ve told him he had to be up early on certain days he has been. Otherwise he smuggled the dog into his room for snuggles and gets up late.

My son is year 8 this year.

He gets his stuff ready the night before including bag and clothes. Showers the night before too.

He has Alexa or his phone wake him in the morning. I don't get involved at all he comes in and sees me usually while I'm still in bed.

He has an easy breakfast that he can make himself toast cereal or belvita.

I pay for lunch because I hate making pack up and it's cheap at his school.

Honestly he knows if he fails to sort himself he has to deal with the consequences. He walks to school with friends so I don't need to be involved.

We were clear with him at the start of term how this would be, we wouldn't be bringing things to school etc. We will help remind him to get sorted the night before but that's it.

Sloth-like plus very forgetful and careless with important things like keys, and not enough motivation to see to a basic element of hygiene, plus not bothered by forgetting lunch. Sleeps through alarm or turns it off and keeps on sleeping, sleeps through reminders. Can't get morning routine down even with constant reminders. Hasn't taken initiative wrt packing bag or lunch at night.

All points to executive function issues, which can accompany ADD/ADHD (often missed in girls as they can mask it very well). It's very well worth eliminating from the picture, as the boot to the arse response can often trigger despair and depression in tweens.

I'd tie the key to the inside of her school bag with long string, so she can't lose it and then let her get herself to school x

I don’t think it’s babying teenagers to make their breakfast.

I actually like getting up with them and seeing them off to school.

Yes they can make cereal and toast but don’t have time to do eggs and pancakes which I do for them. It’s part of our routine. They do everything else themselves.

DD - year 8, very nearly 13. She does everything. Gets up before me (her choice as she likes to have plenty of time). I'll be honest and say that I barely see her in the mornings as she's usually upstairs getting ready when I'm down and vice versa. She even made her younger sister egg on toast this morning. I often offer to make her a sandwich as I'm making them for my younger 2 anyway but 9/10 she's already sorted it herself. I'm lucky that my mornings are now very easy which I'm fully taking advantage of as with 3 under 4, I've paid my dues

At 12 she is more than capable of getting herself sorted for school. I have a dd the same age, I wake her at 7 by turning her bedroom light on, that is my only involvement in her morning routine. If she forgets her lunch or any of her school equipment then tough, she won’t starve to death from missing one meal and it means she’s more likely to remember her lunch the next day.

Year 7 with my dd was a struggle, I was constantly going back and forth to school with things she’d forgotten, etc. From year 8 I said no more, she’s had a year of secondary school to get used to it and after a couple of detentions for forgetting pe kit or whatever she now remembers every time, she forgot her lunch once or twice, was hungry but ate when she got home, she now makes sure she remembers every day. They need to learn to take responsibility themselves and 12 is definitely old enough!

Mine are younger but still seem to manage more. When I was 11+ my mum used to wake me up and I was expected to make packed lunch for both her and me and be ready to leave by 8. If I wasn't she went without me and I had to walk - didn't happen often as I liked the lift!

Younger dd (12) gets herself up and ready. 15 year old i get her up and make sure she gets up then i leave her to get herself ready and out the door. Mine walk so just leave when they are ready. Will get dd1 to start setting her alarm like dd2 does actually

Tell her to pack her bag and make her lunch the night before. Letting mine forget stuff was the only way they learned to sort their stuff out.
I did wake mine up at that age, but I would only shout up the stairs to say we were leaving in 15 mins after the initial waking. Most of the time they got themselves sorted, although I do remember DS not doing this, so I gave him bus fare and he was nearly an hour late and had to explain himself to school I had already 'phoned them to let them know the situation, but he was so embarrassed it never happened again.

well, if I had read your post when my oldest was 12 I would have been quite hard line.
But actually he is now 17, he is very capable and responsible, but does struggle with mornings, and when I think back, I did too at that age, I remember my mum sitting in the car with the engine running as I ran out of the door with everything in my arms (bus to catch)

My 3 have to catch a train, so they must be in the car at a certain time, and ds still pushes it and does it by the skin of his teeth, and puts his shoes on in the car (some days shoes and socks)
We have a policy here that uniform and school bag must be packed the night before. I have always been strict on that, as our time is very tight in the morning.
I tell them to do hair and teeth, but if they don't that it is down to them, I won't wait for them to go back in, not my concern if their hair is a mess.
I do make their lunches, I could get them to make them, but to be honest, some battles are not worth fighting.

I will call upstairs 4 times.
First time wake them all up dd2 is up and downstairs in minutes, she is a mornign person, the other 2 aren't
Second time at 7:10, that is dd1's last call to get out of bed, or she will be late
Third time 7:15, that is ds last call to get out of bed
last time is 7:25, that is only if ds is still in the shower.

We leave at 7:30, if you aren't in the car, you miss the train, and have to phone school. No-one has ever actually not made it into the car, although we have had a couple of times when ds has run out of the door as we pulled off the drive

I have tried to reduce the number of times I call them, but in the end, life is calmer and easier if everyone knows that is what I will do, and the rest is up to them. So I would say, tell her you will call her at x and Y time, and the rest is down to her
get the stuff sorted the night before
Tell her 5 minutes before you leave the house
At leaving time call up the stairs - goodbye, have a nice day, and leave.

if she is late she locks the door and posts key back through

Choose your battles, work to her strengths, if she isn't a morning person, don't expect her to do things like make lunch in the morning. Instead, you make her lunch, but she does something else in the evening.

My Mum or Dad always made our breakfast, Mum also always pressed a blouse for me in the morning, (as we do with our two), and would have done a packed lunch, but I had school lunches.
My friend with older children, now in their twenties, did a lot for them when they were teenagers, but they are competent, functioning adults now.
We give our dds a reasonable amount of help, but I think whether you have just-pre-teen or teenage children who need that extra support still, or children who are more capable, or more independent, they will all get there eventually and be perfectly fine as young adults.

I'm not kidding here. But one guy I know, his mother did everything for him right through his teenage years. He was just given money ad hoc rather than regular allowance to budget with, never cooked or cleaned etc.

He got to university, had zero idea how to manage money, prepare food, wash clothes etc.

He missed and was late for so many lectures he was threatened with being kicked off the course, ate nothing but junk, ran out of money so at one point was living on chocolate bars begged off friends, and got scurvy. Actual scurvy. This was in 2005!!

There is a reason there is generally little/no provision for childcare for secondary age children. It is because the widely accepted view is they do not need it & should be able to be responsible enough to sort themselves out before and after school.

Yes you are right. I found dd was fiercely independent about homework from primary school, whereas dd1 needed help organising herself til Year 9 (age 13-14 for those not in England) Dd1 got there in the end though

Making lunches for a high school child is insanity... Personally I think no child should leave primary school without being able to get their own breakfast/lunch in the morning (or the night before) I certainly wouldn't be doing it for them.

I was babysitting other people's children in year 9, not necessarily something I would allow my 13 year old but this thread is heaving with mollycoddling. It does nothing but a disservice to these DC.

My ds had help from me throughout secondary school. I woke him up, reminded him to get up, made his packed lunch and snacks. He left school, got himself a great apprenticeship, passed his driving test, is saving for a deposit on a house, is never late for work, makes his own lunch or buys it. He isn't dependent on me at all, he does everything for himself.

Making lunches for a high school child is insanity... Personally I think no child should leave primary school without being able to get their own breakfast/lunch in the morning

mine are all perfectly able to get their own breakfast and lunch, and cook a good healthy meal.
That doesn't mean that they can or will do it at 7 am.
As I said before, I used to be really strict about "My teen will learn to be independent and do it all for themselves, and not end up at university unable to get themselves out of bed" etc
But as my teens have got older, I have also realised, that a bit of loving support can come in the way of a packed lunch, or a wake up call. Many teens do struggle with mornings. Dh and I help each other out, if we both need a lunch, he might make mine, or I'll make his, why shouldn't we help our kids out a bit?

As long as we teach them the skills they need, there is no need for them to prove they can do it every morning.
Find what works for you as a family. I found evening chores (washing up laying/clearing table etc) worked better than morning chores (lunch).
I found that doing set wake up calls worked better than none, and I found that a deadline that they know you will stick to does, in the end, make them get out of bed!

Oh and my 12 year old is great int he mornings, and my 17 year old is the worst.
It isn't entirely age related. 12 year old has always beena morning person.
i wait to see what happens when she turns 13....