To think mumsnet needs a separate 'Gender' section?

[Jargoyle]

I've been lurking here for years prior to signing up, but have now all but abandoned the women's rights section due to the overwhelming proliferation of trans threads.

I get that self ID is a big issue but I was saddened, for example, during the whole Irish abortion debacle that the first thread on it was barely two pages long whilst people were happily discussing Caitlyn Genner's style comments until the cows came home.

I think a separate section would be beneficial where the same old posters can have the same old discussions about it all.

I agree, I miss the feminism section, instead of the current ‘Gender Critical But absolutely definitely not transphobic’ section. I support people of all types, not just those with my experiences

A gender section will exclude the Genderfree (who are the vast majority of the planet, with a sex and a unique personality and no sense of “gender identity” at all) so it would be a bit of a quiet section.
Discussion of women’s rights in the feminism section and elsewhere would continue, because at the moment women’s rights and protections are being eroded. Let’s hope that ends soon so women can stop having to fight not to lose rights and protections we desperately need to retain, and focus once more on fresh issues.

“Irish abortion debacle”? What debacle do you mean? Abortion rights have finally been voted through in both Republic of Ireland and the north. As an Irish MNer I can assure you that there has been extensive discussion of the need for this, and support for it, on MN through the many years that we Irish feminists have been campaigning.

If you want a wider range of topics in FWR, why not start some threads?

But there was actually another thread by a regular poster commenting on how it had been largely ignored on FWR - I'm talking several months back.

I get the self-ID thing but it's got so OTT in my opinion with what seems to be a general push to portray anything trans in a dubious light.

Just like the Jess Phillips webchat, where the GC army tried to usurp the conversation and then became indignant when they were told they weren't going to be allowed to.

How what had been ignored by FWR? Irish abortion rights? Do a search - it’s been discussed on here for years, and those of us campaigning have in part organised through here. Part of the discussion happened in FWR, part in craicnet, part in politics, because those are all pertinent sections.

I’d be as happy as anyone if women’s rights to single sex spaces and services weren’t being removed and we could focus on new frontiers of feminism rather than trying to keep our mothers safe in hospital wards, our lesbian sisters safe on dates and our daughters safe in school. But we are where we are, unfortunately.

I don’t really know people who view “anything trans in a dubious light”, as you put it. But some trans rights activists are happy, in the process of achieving their aims, to remove rights from women and girls, and tear up child safeguarding orthodoxy, and many people are rightly dubious of the effects of these consequences.

But really there are much much bigger issues in terms of the actual effect on women. Most women I know don't even know any transwomen but all have encountered violent heterosexual men or been affected by discrimination of some sort, for example. I understand it's a matter of principle but it's getting a bit boring and outside of mumsnet most people now think FWR is full of loons (which wasn't previously the case).

It's like every conversation is about toilets now, and yet I barely see a transwomen once a month despite living in a major city.

A woman who struggles to feed her family, for example, probably isn't spending too much time worrying about bumping into a TW washing their hands in the loo.

So you should start threads about the bigger issues that affect your life, love. Just like this one you’ve started in AIBU.

I start them on all the things that affect mine and we’re all free to do so.

For example, personally I don’t think there is a single bigger issue than child safeguarding, for a parents forum. With how many children are being groomed and exploited in this country under the current rules, we need a greater understanding of safeguarding and better implementation. So a lot of the threads I start or take part in, within FWR and elsewhere, are on that subject, and I value that a lot as it’s hard to on Twitter. (Since there are a lot of sexist people there who try to shut down talk of child safeguarding by saying inclusion and affirmation are more important, and on that basis call those of us trying to discuss it sexist slurs.)

Very unreasonable, imo.

A critique of gender (roles and socialised behaviours) is at the heart of feminism - why on earth would you seek to stop feminists, in Feminist Chat (FWR), critiquing gender and ideologies that reify gender?

Current gender ideologies have the greatest impact on vulnerable women (women in refuges, women in prison), so I don't buy the scold which suggests a critique of gender is a luxury belief.

There is no law against starting feminist theads on whatever feminist topic you want, in Feminist Chat. I know that surrogacy is a commonly discussed issue, as is judicial treatment of women, the treatment of women in the media, threats to women in the public eye or in the professions etc.

Go start a feminist thread in FWR any time!

(But dear God, no more bring 'celebrity gossip' over to FWR please! There have been some very strange threads in the last few months that are all girl power over celebrities, and that's super weird).

But ya know, if people want a Gender section to talk about all the ways gender is innate and lovely and yay gender! that's fine with me. I don't have to police other areas of Mumsnet. Petition away, lovers of gender.

I agree with the above. Start your own thread on the issues that you feel are relevant. Don't start a thread about things that you don't feel are important. It just feels so negative.

Cross post.

A woman who struggles to feed her family, for example, probably isn't spending too much time worrying about bumping into a TW washing their hands in the loo.
I struggled to feed my children while caring for my terminally ill husband and afterwards. One of the things I abruptly learned was how much more important women’s rights and protections are when you are poor, with few, of any, ways to opt out of dangerous situations. And also how much more of a concern lax child safeguarding procedures are to single parents, as suddenly my children were much more often without any parental supervision.

Fair enough, some good points above. I think what gets me though is the constant 'xyz said this on Twitter' threads. A lot of it is just social media bunfighting IMO.

If the whole of the Twitter swamp could be drained and planted with wildflowers the world would be a much better place, IMO. So I’m not generally a fan of those types of threads either.

Anyone can start a thread. If most threads on FWR are about GC feminism then it's because it's what people want to talk about.

If most threads on FWR are about GC feminism then it's because it's what people want to talk about.

Well, the other possibility is that there are a number of posters who are extremely invested in it who bombard the section with trans topics. But I'm certainly not railing against freedom of speech.

I understand it's a matter of principle but it's getting a bit boring and outside of mumsnet most people now think FWR is full of loons (which wasn't previously the case).

Not just outside of Mumsnet.

It's interesting that nearly half of voters think there should be a separate section. This is possibly also skewed by the fact that the GC posters are usually all over any thread to do with gender, whilst a lot of normal posters won't have given it a second glance.

37% is nearly half?

52 people have voted, since this was posted overnight, so, what, about 20 MNers want a gender section?

Be the change you want to see. Start threads on important topics.

Otherwise it sounds rather as if you are seeking to direct other people's activity, to your benefit. Why should anyone else provide the threads you want to see for you? MN is a talk forum, not a paid-for content provider.

Or is your complaint of the other-people's-thought-and-energy-direction variety? 'Why are you campaigining about what matters to you, when you could be focusing on what matters to me?'

Or even the classic belittlement and dismissal; 'why are you campaiging about that little thing, when there is so much else wrong in the world?' i.e. 'I'm so much better and more right than you because I don't campaign on that thing (or anything, actually), ergo you're a narrow-minded obsessive with questionable judgement'.

Completely agree, I just totally ignore that section now because it's filled with anti-trans rubbish.

I would like to see a separate topic

What separate topic though?

People on FWR will continue to discuss protection of women's rights.

Who is it that you think wishes to discuss 'gender'? Surely they would need to be the people requesting their own topic?

So you mostly lurk but you don't like the content. How is the content going to improve if you don't put what you want there?

I think trans ideology is by far the biggest threat to women's rights, as without a definition of woman that only includes women it's impossible to even specify whose rights you are talking about.