To think mumsnet needs a separate 'Gender' section?

[Jargoyle]

I've been lurking here for years prior to signing up, but have now all but abandoned the women's rights section due to the overwhelming proliferation of trans threads.

I get that self ID is a big issue but I was saddened, for example, during the whole Irish abortion debacle that the first thread on it was barely two pages long whilst people were happily discussing Caitlyn Genner's style comments until the cows came home.

I think a separate section would be beneficial where the same old posters can have the same old discussions about it all.

"Most women I know don't even know any transwomen but all have encountered violent heterosexual men or been affected by discrimination of some sort"

Yes - that's why we're concerned about men being given carte balance to a) walk into spaces where women and girls expect privacy and b) chuck on a dress two days a week and take a spot on the Financial Times' Top 100 Businesswoman of the Year that should have gone to a woman.

People tend to get upset when they're being gaslit - that's why there's so much discussion of this topic on FWR. Because we're being gaslit on an international scale.

Also, I started a thread about surrogacy (nothing to do with trans) and it got hundreds of comments so I think it just depends on the topic.

Most women I know don't even know any transwomen but all have encountered violent heterosexual men

How can you not join up the dots here and see the problem with self ID? Relying entirely on their own say so, with no criteria to meet, males will be able to access single sex spaces and vulnerable women. What is the difference between a 'heterosexual man' as you put it and a male bodied person who calls themselves a transwoman??

The problem I have found is that if you don't agree with the exact narrative on a trans-related thread, you tend to invite a pile on and then if you comment on other FWR threads some posters will reference your other comments and take these as 'evidence' that you are not concerned about women's rights.

So, then you have to keep name-changing and as you consequently have a short posting history under a given name, some posters will assume you are an activist who has come over from Twitter or similar with an extensive hidden agenda, when the reality is you are a genuine poster who just happens to disagree with what is being put forward on the thread.

That said, I'm not sure that a separate 'Gender' section would stop that - indeed, it might become a magnet for non-genuine posters which would make things worse for everyone. And it's a fair point that it's everyone's power to start more threads on other topics in FWR.

My plea would simply be to those in FWR who hold GC views to assume good faith in others who disagree with some or all of the prevailing gender-critical narrative, so that no one need be afraid of presenting an opinion. I don't mean, of course, that you shouldn't challenge opinions, but challenge them for what they are, not because you mistakenly think you are engaging in battle with an activist from Twitter or wherever.

I consider myself to be a massive feminist. I'm gender critical and would probably be described as a terf by TRA activists. I blocked FWR last year because of how dogmatic it has become.

Some posters also like to teeter around the edge of what Mumsnet would describe as transphobia. Although they're not breaking the rules, it will be hurtful to trans people and that's unnecessary.

I don't think another section is the answer but I won't be using FWR until it changes.

You're wasting your time OP. Mumsnet has a reputation of being transphobic and most people with an opposing view do not bother to post on here about this issue or generally use Mumsnet now (from pm info).

I understand why you're frustrated but it would be impossible to have a 'gender' board that doesn't discuss the way that belief in innate gender stereotypes is impacting everything from womens rights legislation to safeguarding to LGBT spaces and campaigning.

The horrifying fact is that huge numbers of gender non-conforming children across the world are being subjected to life altering medical treatments and surgery.
We're also seeing safeguarding being almost completely dropped for these children, at the same time that actual examples of abuse are being dismissed as once offs.

We are living through a scandal worse than Savile or Rotheham and the women raising the alarm are being framed as out of touch or even evil.

This is the biggest threat to women and children's rights I've seen in my lifetime. Any board about women or gender is going to talk about it. Its weaving through everything.

I consider myself to be a massive feminist. I'm gender critical and would probably be described as a terf by TRA activists. I blocked FWR last year because of how dogmatic it has become.

This pretty much describes me.

Women's rights are boring aren't they. They make such a fuss. We should hide them away.

@Jargoyle fascinated by the "Irish abortion debacle" though. I thought it was good news? Were you against it?

Maybe there are a lot of threads on it because it is currently the biggest threat to women's and children's rights?
If you think here are more important issues to discuss, start the discussion.

I agree OP. I am a feminist and would love to discuss all kinds of feminist issues but I never go to the feminist section or feel welcome there because it is so taken over by the attitudes about trans that you are describing.

It is not about feminist issues being boring or they should be shoved away- it is that feminism is a lot wider than the one issue this section is completely dominated by. As several posters have said in this thread, the result has been to create a space where we don't feel welcome to talk about feminism, unless we hold specific, quite extreme opinions about one issue.... which is sad.

Reading the FWR section after joining MN many years ago opened my eyes to the many issues facing women. I totally agree that issues surrounding trans people are pretty important, but it's like 'Trans rights vs women's rights' has become more or less the only feminist issue that's ever discussed now. Yes, some posters start threads on FWR about other issues occasionally, but they are a tiny minority compared to the trans threads. I think it's also had an impact on the 'feel' of MN as a whole tbh.

Really, it's simple. If you want to discuss other issues, start some threads.

So you start a thread to call us one track meanies but wont start a thread on what you actually want to discuss?

YABU

Instead of trying to shut down threads by GC feminists, shunt them to some obscure corner of MN,

start your own threads on FWR about non-trans topics !

No GC feminist shuts down threads on other topics,
If there are so many feminists eager to discuss other things, where are you ?

GC feminists should not be required to start all these other threads and do all the work for you

A gender critical section would be good given that it’s such a big topic. Is tgere a seperate section for parking threads? That would be good too. And one for CFs.

So you start a thread to call us one track meanies

That is exactly the sort of comment that provokes the frustration expressed on this thread. Rather than engaging in a nuanced discussion with the OP, you seem to want to reduce the debate to childishly-worded one liners, a la Twitter. I'm not saying everyone in FWR who is GC does this, but there are an ever-growing number who do and it's wearisome - endlessly fighting against people who think they can shut down debate with this kind of tactic.

Course you're a feminist Jargoyle, course you are.

Yeah I mostly agree with you op. Its a continuation of the ridiculously overtly middle class strain of feminism prominent on Twitter and in academia which does precisely zero people any favours.

The treatment of poorer women and disabled women by this current government is of much greater concern than trans stuff and as you say, how many actual trans people do you see in the real world?

I also think the preventing increased normalisation of prostitution and sugar daddy shit should be much higher on the agenda. Right on types with their 'sex work is just normal work' bullshit are more dangerous than toilets atm.

There have been numerous threads on prostitution.

Maybe there are a lot of threads on it because it is currently the biggest threat to women's and children's rights?
If you think here are more important issues to discuss, start the discussion.

Personally I think it is the most threatening thing to happen to women in my lifetime .... and needs real discussion before things are irreparably changed. That's the nub of it - IMPORTANT and WE CAN DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT and NEED TO DO IT FAST as things are changing so fast.

I am keen to discuss other issues - and indeed long for the day when the Trans/Women's Rights issue has been resolved - so that we CAN talk about other really important things.

I feel a bit as if my house is on fire and I need to put out the flames before doing anything else

I can’t agree OP. And I think the trans issues are opening many women’s eyes to the continuing importance of feminism meaning something more than ‘let’s make everything equal’ and the fragility of our rights. I think there are many women who haven’t thought deeply about feminism in terms of women’s oppression as a class and in terms of our biology. The trans debates kind of narrow the focus but broadly the issues are what they always were.

Something that is always found everywhere women talk about issues that affect them is ‘whataboutism’ and exhortations to talk about something more important. This can be trolling, cynical or genuine but it’s always tiresome!

I agree with PPs that it’s actually hard to overstate the importance of trans issues. Women and children are facing a real threat, to our rights, our bodies, our lives - our identities. It’s really important.

I feel a bit as if my house is on fire and I need to put out the flames before doing anything else.

And yet if your wifi and 3G stopped working for a week, you'd likely not encounter anything remotely related to/affected by the trans debate in real life. Unlike the real people you'll see and walk past in the street who are struggling to get by, affected by poverty etc.

Worrying about toilets is a privilege IMO and not even fifth on the list for most genuinely struggling women.

Didn't mean that to sound aggressive/having a go. Just my genuine belief on the matter.