To think mumsnet needs a separate 'Gender' section?

[Jargoyle]

I've been lurking here for years prior to signing up, but have now all but abandoned the women's rights section due to the overwhelming proliferation of trans threads.

I get that self ID is a big issue but I was saddened, for example, during the whole Irish abortion debacle that the first thread on it was barely two pages long whilst people were happily discussing Caitlyn Genner's style comments until the cows came home.

I think a separate section would be beneficial where the same old posters can have the same old discussions about it all.

That FWR board used to be a mixed, vibrant board with a wide variety of feminist discussion that drew posters and readers from across the mn user base.

Actually, that FWR board has always had threads like this about it - since it's inception. At one point there seemed to be a thread every couple of months moaning about how mean the Mumsnet feminists were.

It used be "oh it's too radical to theoretical too unwelcoming." On and on they go - right up to this thread here. Alway seems to be very urgent reason that FWR needs to be changed in some way.

Datun's post demonstrates beautifully why discussion on this topic, on the simple legal definition os the word "woman" is so very important.

The abuse that women - particularly those in the public eye, and particularly those in politics, and speaking on women's rights - online should demonstrate two things - why the FWR board should be left alone for women to post on - and why the FWR board is targeted so often, and why a lot of the criticism aimed at it is disingenuous.

Zebra, agree. There has always been moaning about the feminist board. Always. Too direct, too academic, too theoretical, not welcoming enough, too radfem, now too GC.

Just start different threads then! You can't stop people discussing what they want to discuss.

It's like the incredibly racist and mean Meghan Markle threads. Then some people were sick of them so they started a thread for people who like her and mostly just ignore those who just want to moan about her.

Why doing likewise with feminism is beyond some people, I don't know.

I can't remember the whys and wherefores, but wasn't it some of those complaints in the past which led to FWR being split into separate boards in the first place? But it doesn't seem to have worked in practice, the boards other than Feminism Chat are largely ignored - I think that's down to people's habit of scanning for new threads in just a couple of favourites plus Active convos. The threads on the other feminism boards evidently don't get enough traffic for many threads to make it into Active.

I occasionally have a look, there are some potentially good threads getting lost. I'd rather go back to one combined FWR thread (called Feminism and Women's Rights) plus perhaps a resource thread for links to reference material (theory, books, press articles). But if a substantial group want a 'libfem' board, well, why not do the experiment.

Retro you didn’t answer my question. Interesting.

I’ll answer yours though: I certainly do not think posters who have been “happily posting on FWR for years” should go away. I think they should keep posting if they want, and stop giving a fuck that a majority may disagree with their views. Grow some ovaries ffs.

But the anti-FWR brigade don’t want to do that. They want FWR to modify their behaviour to suit them more. No. If FWR doesn’t suit, try the other four feminism boards.

FWR is the third busiest board after AIBU and Relationships. It’s not niche. It is mainstream. Of course some women hate it and many others are indifferent, so what? You could say the same about every board on here.

Hi all,
Just to explain the several deletions on this thread; we felt that there was an unacceptably goady tone on many posts and we will be speaking to that poster directly.
In future, we would ask fellow MNers to report if someone is posting in this manner as we are a post-moderated site.

Haha, what a shocker, despite the faux innocence "but I'm just asking questions, do you always see normal conversation as confrontational, are you always so intimidated and scared by debate" LMAO

Good job MNHQ 👏 Faith restored.

GC feminists on the FWR board is who it reminds me of.

Really? You mean you’re being told to shut up and put up, threatened with rape, violence, being burned alive, called vile names and being told that you’re not permitted to talk about anything relating to the female body, because that’s exclusionary? Really?

That FWR board used to be a mixed, vibrant board with a wide variety of feminist discussion that drew posters and readers from across the mn user base.

Women used to be able to describe their own sex, without being told that Wilma with a dick and balls is a woman too, so I think you’ll find that as the dangers that women face, change, so do the tones and discussions on the feminist boards. If women’s rights to spaces and discussions that were previously free from those with male bodies, was returned to them, you’ll find the discussions will change again.

Now it’s not, because GC feminists have driven out posters with dissenting viewpoints, literally by telling them they are not welcome there any more, and that the board is for GC women.

See my first answer to your comment. ^ If you’re arguments aren’t robust enough to convince others that your opinion is the correct one, don’t blame other women for that. Do your homework and come back with new evidence. It’s not our fault that you can’t do that. We’re not physically lifting you and chucking you out. You leave because you want to.

Finally. read Datun’s post. If you can find evidence that she is wrong in her comments, feel free to show the evidence.

In future, we would ask fellow MNers to report if someone is posting in this manner as we are a post-moderated site.

Well, I might do if I understood what the problem was with the deleted posts
Not trying to be an ahole but straight up, I thought the back and forward was robust, but each poster was holding their own and matching tone.

Now I'd be more inclined to report Diegos last post as totally unnecessary, and goady. What's the point of the giddy hand claps?

Not even FWR feminists would be able to drive out a good argument.

There are reams of discussion threads on FWR - a mine of information, facts, statistics, links, anecdotes, research and debate. The recipes & stuff were only posted to pretty obvious TRAs not actually making any real arguments or points for discussion - and MNHQ don't even allow that now.

Grey Rock was something that started on threads either by, or about Stephanie Hayden, who at the time, was taking MNHQ to court to try and have personal details of a Mumsnet poster released to them. And if that's not reason for "grey-rocking" someone, I don't know what is.

It's been used since if FWR regulars feel someone is on a thread just to derail or disrupt it - which does happen, unfortunately. Always has.

I am also a bit at the deleted posts I didn't think that poster was goady but I could say that 1 or 2 others are.

Oh well MNHQ choice.

Diego was one of the posters who's posts where deleted, where they not?

The post where Diego calls JulyKit a dickhead stands - but maybe it hasn't been reported? Or maybe it's fine to say "too many dickheads like Julykit are on FWR" or whatever. I don't know - I thought negative generalisations of GC feminists were also a breach of the guidelines.

I suspect a large % of the previously liberal "live and let live" feminists who frequented FWR when it was all happy-clappy are all still there, but now as gender critical radfems by sole virtue of what has happened.

I'm one of them, for a start. My position has gone from "what's the harm?" to "no fucking way!"

I'm not embarrassed to say I changed my position as I learned about the risks and issues.

Given the user stats, its hard to conclude otherwise.

Wowsers. I thought this was a tame ass thread by AIBU standards, didn’t see rules broken. Sarcasm sure, but don’t Brits take pride in your sarcasm game? :)

I report abuse or threats. That’s it. The idea of reporting for “tone” makes me uneasy.

Libfemmers, I may disagree with you vehemently, but I defend your right to express your views. I hope get the LibFem board you want

I'm another feminist who ignored the trans threads on MN for a long time (around 2013) and thought what is all the fuss about?

Then I read one that detailed the cotton ceiling, and the Feminist Library in (from memory) Vancouver being vandalised by TRAs. Then I saw it.

Mumsnet is well known as one of the only places on the Internet where GC women can come together so of course the FWR threads are popular here with those posters. The typical GC demographic is also that of the typical demographic of MN users. I don’t want anyone to stop, just that some people who are mumsnet users or who have been here for a while may still want to discuss feminism without the GC focus constantly at the forefront.
MN either say yes or they don’t.

I wouldn't mind a LibFem board being added, if there's a demand for it. I wouldn't want to see FWR/Feminism Chat changed though.

In fact, I'd quite like to see Feminism Chat revert back to "Feminism/Women's Rights" again.

Datun, thanks for your answer. It makes sense. I suppose you are right, and we can't have a coherent feminism without a definition of women that everyone agrees on.

Even so, it seems to me that the trans debate has really only put pressure on weaknesses that already existed in the feminist movement. For example, shortlists, as you said, were not the goal of the movement, but only a means and frankly not a great one. I always feel bad when there are special awards for women in science for example, or special grants for women to be leaders. Yes, how infuriating when a newly minted trans woman snaps them up, but they weren't enough anyway. They were just the sign of our inferior status. And also the idea of women as a category was always a bit shaky, there was already tension between cultural groups on what the goals should be, and radical feminism has never really been okay with mothers.

So to me, not all the changes are bad. For example, my daughter does martial arts and its mixed girls and boys and they do the divisions on weight. The girls win about half the divisions when it's like that and it gives them a good mindset that they can beat boys. I know every sport is different, but this idea that women always have to be separate because we're so vulnerable, this is a new idea in feminism. People talk as if it's been around forever, but I don't remember it.

Agreed, and that’s why frequenting the other feminism boards here offers a solution.

A feminist space - on MN - minus the irritants of FWR.

What is the downside?

Women's sport hasn't been around forever. That's the point - women created women's sport so they'd have a shot at winning on a level playing field. The Women's Lawn Tennis Association was created in the 1970s, and not because women are vulnerable, but because of physiological differences between men and women.

Oh well, that's another one over with

Thread about FWR that is.