To think mumsnet needs a separate 'Gender' section?

[Jargoyle]

I've been lurking here for years prior to signing up, but have now all but abandoned the women's rights section due to the overwhelming proliferation of trans threads.

I get that self ID is a big issue but I was saddened, for example, during the whole Irish abortion debacle that the first thread on it was barely two pages long whilst people were happily discussing Caitlyn Genner's style comments until the cows came home.

I think a separate section would be beneficial where the same old posters can have the same old discussions about it all.

Semantics. A large number of those threads are expressing concern about the safeguarding of children. As I have said my concern is around children with autism, why would you be concerned about women discussing this.

People who wish to discuss gender ideology could request their own special section.

It will take no time whatsoever for the people who want to discuss women's rights and safety, to recognise once again that the ideological pro-trans position, especially self-ID, is a threat to women's rights and safety - the focus of that board - so to discuss that.

Those posters are, as far as I can see, not interested in taking part in a separate discussion about gender ideology - most don't even believe in gender! It's the last thing they'd be attracted to a discussion about.

So who would this new 'gender' board be for? Gender-obsessed academics and pro-gender activists? Have they requested their own space on Mumsnet?

You want to discuss other issues affecting women's rights on the FWR board? Go right ahead!

This thread has a real ring about it of 'Mumsnet? Where's Dadsnet eh, why haven't you provided that for me?' 'It's right there, no-one uses it'. Oh.

Stop expecting other people to do your work for you.

'The focus of the FWR board' in my second para, obvs.

I am a struggling single mum and I have cancer.

I still care passionately about women. And I certainly have had real life issues with trans women. Most of them are heterosexual btw, meaning they are sexually attracted to women.

This thread is odd.

You want a wider variety of feminist issues discussed. The way you choose to tackle that is to start a thread about the issues you think is discussed too much, whilst simultaneously suggesting (some) feminists should be given a smaller platform.

Odd way to tackle an issue.

I don't get the impression the OP has any interest in feminist issues. They said they weren't a feminist. It seems their interest lies more in stopping women discussing what is important to them.

Yes, semantics. A PP objected to me saying 'anti-trans' when I imagine they themselves would say gender critical. For the purpose of what's posted on the feminism boards here it is fair to say generally that the content is anti-trans. I'm not going to comment on if individual issues are anti-trans, my point is a general about the use of the board.

Why do you think women shouldn't talk about the reality of what is being done to children and vulnerable adults in the name of 'trans'?

Talk about what you like. But it has turned the feminist boards into an area that almost exclusively discusses gender. I don't view them because while I am a feminist I do not want to get into daily arguments about what it means to be a woman.

Interestingly reddit's feminist page currently has posts about Turkey's marriage to child rapists bill, the higher rate of suicide attempts by women, and MRAs. The trans stuff is discussed in a gender critical page.

As OP says, in real life, no-one thinks about trans issues as a big deal or a threat to women.

Rubbish! When I campaigned at the time of the GRA deadline, every person I spoke too in my city was seriously concerned about the impact of self ID.

When discussions arise at work, say on the back of a news story, women are concerned. They are also afraid to speak out, gaslighting like yours and vilification, being part of the issue.

It seems their interest lies more in stopping women discussing what is important to them

Indeed.

I'm utterly befuddled as to why anyone would find it odd that feminist discuss the most serious threat to basic women's (and indeed human) rights we face in our country.

As for Reddit, are you having a laugh? Like many parts of the internet reddit's so called feminist section is policed by trans believers and anything that even hints at the unfolding scandal is removed.

Could others who agree with the OP answer too? What is it we’re supposed to be discussing but we’re not?

For me it's not even the topic, it's the style of discussion. A lot of the trans discussion is valuable and interesting. But then there's a lot that seems exaggerated and I think has the effect of stifling discussion. Like even on here, the OP wants to separate the feminist chat thread. She gets accused of trying to shut women down and sideline them. She said nothing like that! But that's not the worst I've seen. On other threads there's strawmanning and refusal to honestly engage with people. Of course, not every poster is like that, but the effect is that anyone even slightly critical of the prevailing view gets driven off. It makes the discussion one sided and limited.

Yeah, if OP wants to be able to 'lurk' i.e. be educated by feminists, on the topics of her choice, she'd probably be better off subscribing to a podcast.

There is plenty on there to read and comment on.

The only reason I don't comment more is that it has already been said better than I can say it. There are the rest of the boards for more relaxed conversation and so many of them!

Nah mate.

For years there was loads of stuff on here about 'pink stinks' and gender stereotyping of kids culture. Never a day went by without someone saying 'calm down it's only a t-shirt' or whatever.

If your idea of feminism is 'supporting anything women do' then you've fundamentally misunderstood what the word means.

The trans stuff is discussed in a gender critical page.

... because the gender critical women were bullied and censored off the feminist pages.

Translation: Can we corral the nasty women that I don't agree with into a separate section?
Maybe it could be called "The Gulag".

Talk about what you like. But it has turned the feminist boards into an area that almost exclusively discusses gender.

But that's because the notion of gender is itself anti-feminist. 'Gender' says that people have to behave in a certain way because of their sex. Feminism is (in part) the fight against these stereotypes.

Trans ideology says that men can be women if they have a female 'gender identity'. Feminism says that 'gender identity' doesn't exist. We are all just people with different personalities.

You can't be both a gender believer and a feminist.

On other threads there's strawmanning and refusal to honestly engage with people. Of course, not every poster is like that, but the effect is that anyone even slightly critical of the prevailing view gets driven off. It makes the discussion one sided and limited.

Not my experience. The strawmanning only comes from one side (and it's not the feminists). You might find it one sided if you have no arguments and you're discussing with well-informed people who don't agree with you.

Black and Tinsel you've nailed it. We should be punished and reeducated in our own separate cell.

Agreed

Oldcrone, for example, trans people have said over and over that gender role (stereotypes) and gender identity are not the same, but you still conflate them. That's not the worst strawmanning, but I personally find that kind of argument frustrating. Better to deal directly with the real arguments. But that requires understanding the other side first.

I mean, I don't understand what gender identity is. But pretending it's stereotypes is just avoiding the question.

Also your idea that i feel like it's one sided because I have "no arguments" seems unnecessarily combative - surely I can appreciate complexity of discussion even if I have no arguments myself? This is exactly what I meant before - even the slightest criticism is taken as opposition. Actually, I've always been gender critical and agree with most of the gc arguments.

Having the definition of "woman" changed is the biggest danger facing us at the moment. It just is. All other issues and debates pale into insignificance if we can't say "a woman is an adult human female".

I mean, I don't understand what gender identity is. But pretending it's stereotypes is just avoiding the question

What do you think it is?

'Gender identity' was made up by John Money. Seriously, it doesn't exist. Read up on who John Money was and what he did.

Flip this on its head. Have a section for non radfems if that's what you want.