To think mumsnet needs a separate 'Gender' section?

[Jargoyle]

I've been lurking here for years prior to signing up, but have now all but abandoned the women's rights section due to the overwhelming proliferation of trans threads.

I get that self ID is a big issue but I was saddened, for example, during the whole Irish abortion debacle that the first thread on it was barely two pages long whilst people were happily discussing Caitlyn Genner's style comments until the cows came home.

I think a separate section would be beneficial where the same old posters can have the same old discussions about it all.

If you cant see why toilets matter to women then I have to assume you've never had a miscarriage, dont have PTSD, and are not a BAME woman. And that you don't know any women whoa are.

Women are not driving this agenda and we dont benefit from it. We do have needs dictated by our biology.

When it comes to mixed sex provision being imposed on us against our will, I mainly talk about the risks to women in hospital as it happens, other women talk about schools, child safeguarding or womens prisons.

But if your kids hadn't eaten since yesterday morning, or you were sleeping in a doorway, would you really be worried about Karen White? (I know this will probs be called whataboutism).

Women existing at the margins are those most likely to be impacted by biological males in women's spaces. If you're on the street, you're disproportionately likely to go to prison, homeless shelters and to be assaulted and thus have need of rape crisis facilities. This makes it more of a duty to be clear about the dangers of self ID, not less.

Yeah there’s a reason that it’ll be called whataboutism, because it is - don’t you see that?

Please, start more threads on FWR discussing whatever it is you want to discuss. You really are very very welcome to. You can’t self-exclude by choice and then complain you aren’t being included.

"Worrying about toilets is a privilege "

You know, it's almost as if there was never any point to segregating bathroom, bedroom and changing facilities on the basis of sex.

And yet most cultures and times and countries have come to the conclusion it IS a good idea! Weird, isn't it?

And actually here is a regular FWR poster (although not seen her in a while, hope she’s ok) who is homeless on the streets and unable to access any hostel or shelter because all the women’s shelters admit anyone self-identifying as a woman, and she needs a female-only space. So, actually, perhaps the self-ID is more important, the more vulnerable you are.

This is not something happening to other people on the news. This is something affecting every woman and girl. And by extension everyone who has a daughter, wife, mother and cares about them.

The very fact that some people still think it's some distant issue shows that we need more threads about it.

Self ID is absolutely more important the more vulnerable you get. That's not even a question. The OP has it completely arse about face.

I work with children with autism. Have done all my life. Are they on your permitted list of what it's ok to worry about. A group that is seriously affected by this debate.

Its ridiculous to think you can only worry about one problem at a time, and that one problem has to be fixed before you can think about any other problem - especially when one of those problems is the issue human rights.

Whether or not women are permitted to exist as a distinct legal class is the fundamental human rights crisis of this decade.

Everything else comes second to this. Everything includes the effects of austerity, the cuts to the NHS and women's services, and the crisis in education.

All of these risks to the well being of women and children are entirely artificial and driven by a controlling agenda that seeks to remove us of our existing rights. those rights were not just handed to us on a plate; women had to fight for them, and events today give us some insight into why that was and what an uphill struggle it must have been.

If you don't understand this then you don't understand either human rights or safeguarding. In which case I have no confidence that my rights are safe with you as their spokesman.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_11_of_the_European_Convention_on_Human_Rights

YABU.

I did feel a little as OP did on first returning to lurk on the FWR boards after a number of years overseas and rarely looking at MN.

Everything seemed to have become focused on trans and gender issues and I couldn't see many of the FWR discussions I remembered from 5-10 years earlier.

At the same time I also observed that several family and friends IRL appeared to have become overly concerned with developments in UK trans attitudes, policies and legislation around schools, toilets etc..

I had previously blamed politicians and their pet-media for pushing stories which deliberately polarised and excited people in order to distract from wider political mess (trans policies, ISIS brides etc..). I assumed that fears about negative impacts on women and children from institutional changes were fear-mongering and paranoia.

Then, after actually reading the FWR content and doing some background reading, I began to understand and agree with many of the opinions and concerns posted, especially problems around safeguarding policies and application of evidence-based medicine. My support for the rights of trans people has not been lessened. Only a superficial or deliberately disingenuous reading of most FWR posts would make them seem transphobic.

I can't be arsed to get into another trans debate tbh.

I've voiced my opinion and quite a few agree with me.

I think that

A) If anyone wants a wider range of threads in FWR they should post about whatever topics are of importance to them.

B) It would be better if some of the threads, particularly the child safeguarding ones were posted in other areas to get higher visibility of the issues (and I’m guilty of not doing this). One example- threads about the upcoming court case with Keira Bell are not specifically feminist issues IMO.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7926675/Witness-court-battle-against-gender-clinic-reveals-happened-cry-help.html

(Apologies for the Daily Mail link)

Starting this thread probably wasn't the way to go if you couldn't be arsed with a debate. You would've also been best off refraining from using women at the margins of society to try and make your point, especially as their experiences prove the exact opposite of what you think they do.

Caitlin my kids call me dad Jenner

The problem is that many topics are inter related. I have seen some excellent threads on Feminist Chat about appearance, for example, the recent thread about short hair on girls. It’s a shame (in my opinion) that there are always one or two posters suggesting it’s unimportant because I do think we should consider the pressures on women to present in certain ways and whether this matters or not. I happen to think that the stronger the societal pressure for men and women to look a certain way, the more unhappy those who don’t/can’t conform will be. I think this helps explain why some people want to identify as non binary so even a topic like appearance is not completely trans free.

I think it would be hard to have a feminism and gender board in which there were no transgender threads but there are plenty of topics that predominantly affect women that would really benefit from some of the really well informed discussion that I see on Feminism Chat. I respect those for whom preserving single sex spaces and the pressures on non gender conforming children are their most important priorities but I’d also encourage those who would like to see other discussions to post about them on Feminism Chat.

I read the feminism board almost every day but I still don’t really understand references to weetabix, Bunbury, etc

If you want to discuss other issues to do with female rights start a thread and discuss them, surely?!?

Posting an AIBU about a particular issue then saying you don’t want to get into a fight about it is a bit contradictory OP.

Do you genuinely think this whole debate is "worrying about toilets".

Sounds like you haven't read a single thread on FWR.

I've voiced my opinion and quite a few agree with me
Then start new threads. Get more discussions going.

I am absolutely livid 😡. What a patronising argument the OP puts forward?! I am a disabled woman, on ESA & PIP, in rented accommodation, have survived DV & rape etc etc. and one of the issues that is currently most important to me is the gender debate. Our foremothers fought blooming hard for the rights we take for granted, which are being eroded daily. She adds that it is only middle class academics who are bothered about this issue, I can assure her it isn't.

My background was in Women's Aid, Mental Health & Youth Work. I also have an MA in Criminology & became interested in this debate because of the issue of trans identifying sex & violent offenders as part of my studies. I was very much a trans ally and unlike the OP have transwomen friends and a primary school aged child member of my extended family who has socially transitioned; I was, however concerned about self ID. I also wasn't aware that many self IDing trans women not only retained their male bodies but also didn't take hormones or seek medical advice. I therefore started doing some research including going to a Women's Place meeting & looking at TRA sites on the Internet. I was struck by the threats of violence being received by any woman who disagreed with TRAs, the doxxing, spurious complaints to Police & no-platforming going on, not to mention the rubbish being directed at kids by Mermaids etc. What I've seen happening in Canada & the US is really worrying. It is important that we discuss these issues and ensure that the powers that be hear the unpleasant truth.

In my personal view we need to return to breaking down ridiculous gender stereotypes in order that we may all express ourselves as we wish without having to mutilate our bodies in order to try and become another person. The stories of detransitioners are absolutely heartbreaking and as a society we really need to listen to them as well as the Jenners, Paris Lees and Munro Bergdorfs.

Hear, hear Luna 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

I can't be arsed to get into another trans debate tbh
Yet you want a whole gender board? When even people suggesting and supporting a gender board don’t want transgender debates then we definitely don’t need one.

YABVU.

I live in the backwater of the Northeast and see trans women and people who probably self smdefinecas a gender every time I leave the house.