To think mumsnet needs a separate 'Gender' section?

[Jargoyle]

I've been lurking here for years prior to signing up, but have now all but abandoned the women's rights section due to the overwhelming proliferation of trans threads.

I get that self ID is a big issue but I was saddened, for example, during the whole Irish abortion debacle that the first thread on it was barely two pages long whilst people were happily discussing Caitlyn Genner's style comments until the cows came home.

I think a separate section would be beneficial where the same old posters can have the same old discussions about it all.

And those of you who would like to see more things discussed on FWR. ... start a thread!

As OP says, in real life, no-one thinks about trans issues as a big deal or a threat to women.

The arrogance...

I used to spend a lot of time on that board, but i took a break and as i came back to it i do find it is as you say. Lots of "look at what this person said on twitter" and lots of the same discussions being had over and over again by the same people. When you scroll down active convos it's very rare to see a thread in fwr that isn't trans. Since i stopped going on there my mental health has improved. I saw the outrage over the jess Phillips webchat and langcleg being banned for breaking rules. It's Mumsnets site and they can allow or not allow whatever they want.

I would really like there to be a feminist section where trans inclusive posters don't get bullied. As it is I avoid FWR whenever possible and have even started questioning whether I want to call myself a feminist.

Why would anyone want to sideline women discussing women’s rights? On a feminism board? No thanks love, frankly, I’d rather a few of the conversations made it into Chat or AIBU more often so they were even more visible to other women than got buried in your suggested new topic.

Except that the (far more rabid in real life) lobby which coined 'TERF' included an 'F' . FWR is the best home for it. You could argue for a different home for several other repeating issues. Seems to me it keeps coming up because users of this site (real people) are repeatedly concerned about it. It isn't just one issue either... Affects several areas of concern around women legally, as mothers, as partners/wives, as employees, clinicians, sports parents, participants and fans. I find repeat posts about various issues annoying and irrelevant to me but I don't call for them to be removed and put elsewhere. The point of these forums is freedom to raise and discuss whatever is of concern isn't it? People complaining presumably don't feel as strongly about all these feminist issues they'd like to see discussed, or why aren't you all posting and ignoring the trans threads that don't bother you? And if you find genuine transphobia, report it.

No one is suggesting any form of sidelining (unless you are assuming interest is so weak it will cause people to stop posting if MNHQ puts it in its own topic (usually a mark of importance or high traffic)

Why are women always told what they can and cannot talk about?

No. Just stop it.

The FWR board is fine and women do not need othering or shoved in a corner simply because you disagree with their choice of topics.

If you support sexist gender role stereotypes, and self ID - allowing any men to access women’s and girls’ changing rooms, sports, prisons and short lists on demand - then you are very definitely not a feminist.
Let’s think- who would benefit from silencing women’s debate on these issues and hiding it away on a separate section? Who would like to throw safeguarding out of the window? Because that’s the dubious group you are indirectly supporting.

FernBritanica - There you go.

Feminism Chat isn't the only feminist section here.

Out of interest what are your top 5 areas you would like to see discussed on the FWR board OP?

Definitely agree that you should be the change you want to see in the world, OP. However, I’m unclear as to why someone who says they aren’t a feminist should feel that they are the best arbiter of what feminists ought to talk about. Why would you care? (Honest question)

I do find it odd that FWR is the third most popular board on MN, even though apparently millions of users have had it blocked for years AND those same posters who have it blocked can state with such confidence exactly what is discussed there Something doesn’t add up there...

in real life, no-one thinks about trans issues as a big deal or a threat to women.

Goodness you must move in very limited circles. In real life everyone I know thinks trans nonsense is a threat to everyone women, girls, men, boys, free speech, decent society, sanity.

No wonder people want to talk about it. It's a disaster being imposed against the wishes of the vast majority.

I am totally trans inclusive feminist and don't feel bullied on FWR

Any female deserves the same protection and support no matter how they identify

Out of interest what are your top 5 areas you would like to see discussed on the FWR board OP?

Oh excellent question. Could others who agree with the OP answer too? What is it we’re supposed to be discussing but we’re not? Just thinking recently, I’ve discussed the Labour Party, surrogacy, feminist artists, and pressures on women around anal sex on FWR.

I've been lurking here for years prior to signing up, but have now all but abandoned the women's rights section due to the overwhelming proliferation of trans threads.

I felt exactly the same 3 years ago. Trump had been elected but it was Pence I was concerned about, with his viciously anti-abortion status and the right-wing knock on effect in other countries. Yet there was nothing in FWR except trans threads. Some of seemed important to me, some just seemed just down right mean.

I didn’t personally care (and still don’t) about accompanying men in changing rooms or toilets and thought that transgender women were rare, all were dysphoric and just trying to live their lives in an approximation of “womanhood”. I didn’t believe people could change sex but I was willing to be kind.

But then, slowly, a whole heap of stuff began to change my mind. Men in women’s sport including Laurel Hubbard in weight lifting and The Cyclist. Men with swords in female toilets, men brandishing swords on social media, demanding access to women’s spaces. Adrian Harrop vs Posie Parker. My daughters going through puberty and the excruciating self-consciousness of an adolescent girl. If they had boys in their change rooms they just wouldn’t change. “Trans” children, many with autism and/or trauma in their backgrounds, being given powerful hormones to suspend them in prepubescence while their peers mature. “Trans” children being told they are trans on the basis of regressive gender stereotypes- those narratives all seem to come back to clothes and toys. Self-ID and female penises. The 60 plus genders and the self-absorption of those who label themselves as such.

If you admire women in sport, if you have female children, if you worry about children being told can they change sex then the reason for all of these threads becomes evident.

Are we absolutely sure the OP doesn't just want the women of FWR to shut up completely?

It's a bit of an odd thread - "don't post this there, can you post over there instead?" - I don't think that's really feasible for the third most popular board on Mumsnet.

Feminism is by it's very nature a discussion of sex and gender, you can't really separate it out.

Maybe you could ask for a non-gender ‘feminist’ board instead, where you can talk about things that are feminist but not related at all to gender (struggle to think what that would be, but hey 🤷🏻‍♀️).

Worrying about toilets is a privilege IMO and not even fifth on the list for most genuinely struggling women

Why all the campaigns for sex segregated toilets in developing countries so girls can attend school and women go about their business in safety then?

Clearly the most vulnerable women and girls are very concerned about having toilets men can't enter, regardless of how those men identify.

You do realise the concept of human beings even having a 'gender' was only made up 50 years ago by the notorious* Dr John Money right?

*that is as polite as I can manage for that particularly appalling human being

OP I agree to an extent. The board is dominated by trans issues.

Unfortunately MN has been hijacked by a cohort who use it as a space to share anti-trans ideas. If MN started a new board it would be endorsing this, wouldn't it?

If you cant see why toilets matter to women then I have to assume you've never had a miscarriage

What a crass generalisation. I have had four miscarriages, the first started in a public toilet. I don't see the issue with transwomen using women's toilets. I didn't give a fuck what genitals the people queuing had, it wasn't on my radar.

Which ideas do you find anti trans Waitrose?

I think women and girls should be able to compete with their own sex, is that anti trans?

I don't think children should be placed on a medical pathway that we now know is harmful, is that anti trans?

I think male rape shouldn't be recorded as female crime, is that anti trans?

Which ideas do you find anti trans Waitrose?

This is semantics really, isn't it? You are already aware that the board is almost entirely made up of threads criticising and expressing concern about trans issues. I cannot see how this can be described as anything but anti-trans.

Why is it semantics?

Is it anti-trans to think two male surgeons, Dr Jess Ting (no, really) and Dr Marci Bowers arguing in the middle of yet another 'revision' of Jazz Jennings genital surgery suggests they have zero idea what they are doing and are frankly just experimenting on brainwashed children, a crime against humanity for which they belong in prison?

Why do you think women shouldn't talk about the reality of what is being done to children and vulnerable adults in the name of 'trans'?

and expressing concern about trans issues

Expressing concern on their impact on women's rights, actually. And children's safeguarding.