To think mumsnet needs a separate 'Gender' section?

[Jargoyle]

I've been lurking here for years prior to signing up, but have now all but abandoned the women's rights section due to the overwhelming proliferation of trans threads.

I get that self ID is a big issue but I was saddened, for example, during the whole Irish abortion debacle that the first thread on it was barely two pages long whilst people were happily discussing Caitlyn Genner's style comments until the cows came home.

I think a separate section would be beneficial where the same old posters can have the same old discussions about it all.

Self define as agender

Phone is self defining as an asshole.

I agree with you to a large extent Jagoyle. I miss the wide ranging discussions that used to characterise the FWR section and I am tired of virtually every discussion posted being turned to a trans debate and the lack of engagement in other feminist issues. I do think the issues raised around trans rights and women's rights are important but it currently creates so much noise on the board it seems to swallow up all the other debate.

However, I don't think a separate section for discussion of the impact of transgender rights activism on women would actually work and I really don't want to see the end of one of the few places on the Internet where women can discuss these issues in a mainly female environment and from a gender critical perspective without being shouted down.

Those saying you don't see trans people in RL.I have only known a couple in my life,then my DD started secondary school 2014.
Nothing much in the first year ,DD said she was lesbian,no issue.But she fancied some Boys too so went with pansexual as it stopped the constant questioning about her label.
She had been distressed about growing breasts too,I accidentally realised she thought they would be like mine are now so she realised that she was developing as her slightly older cousins were and relaxed about her body as much as teens do.
When she saw our go about anxiety/self harm the first question asked was about hersexual/gender I'd which she is fortunately sound about.
Her best friend came out as ftm,no problem really at school who let him carry on using the girls toilets and as a never very sporty person linking with the girls for pe.
So many mums on here have more links than they realise with this issue and it's now crept into primary schools.If you have a child,especially a daughter it's scarey.I live rurally so not as much pressure as in large schools but still here.

I really do understand the self-ID issue, but IMO it's just not as big a threat as many on here make out. Theoretically, yes. But in reality, no. I just don't believe there are legions of sex predators waiting to rush the women's changing rooms as soon as they have the cover of self-ID, even though a few undoubtedly do exist
For some, I think there is also an almost narcissistic fury at no longer being able to claim 'prime victim status' in the eyes of the public, and many are apoplectic that a subset of men are viewed as even more of a minority than women. That's why, in addition to the quite reasonable discussion around safeguarding, there seems to be a constant campaign to paint trans people as being largely middle-aged crossdressing perverts with no genuine dysphoria

you aint no feminist love

And yet if your wifi and 3G stopped working for a week, you'd likely not encounter anything remotely related to/affected by the trans debate in real life

Hate to disillusion you, but many of the posters on FWR are already affected in real life with this issue - be it their children, the trans widows, women facing "re-education" about gender at work, teachers and parents dealing with "Mermaids' style training days in schools and so on.

I myself have a 12yr old daughter who has a transgirl (a male child) allowed into her changing rooms at school. She's not happy about it, I'm not happy about it - the school's policy dictates that this child goes into the changing rooms of their choice.

This is not an issue that goes away when the wifi is switched off. These are hugely important issues.

YABVU.

As theunknown said, you ain't no feminist love.

And hear hear Luna

Don't click on threads you're not interested in.

Start threads you are interested in.

It's not that hard.

you ain't no feminist love.

See, this is part of the problem with what FWR has become IMO. Posters who try and define 'what a feminist is' based on their own narrow viewpoint.

I don't actually support self-ID, but I'm not pompous enough to try and police the definition of feminism. That said, I don't identity as a feminist as I don't like what it often represents nowadays. I would rather just say that I support 'equality' and women's rights, which is not always the same thing.

I also think a lot of people have hidden the FWR board from Active because of the number of trans threads, meaning other topics are not as widely seen. It's all well and good being told to start other topics, but maybe a separate thread for "gender critical" posts would allow others to feel they can discuss other feminist issues.

There is no feminism without a critique of gender.

It's nonsensical that people are talking about having a kind of feminist chat that shoves anything to do with gender off into a dark corner.

If you want to talk about poverty, OP, from a feminist perspective, then just start a thread about poverty from a feminist perspective.

This is all very silly.

I don't identity as a feminist

but you would like to reorganise Feminist Chat to suit you ?!!

Um...no.

Worrying about toilets is a privilege IMO and not even fifth on the list for most genuinely struggling women.

I think you're being patronising here, it is possible to worry about loads of issues at once. I actively work with women in poverty, with mental illness and suffering from the after-effects of trauma and still care about upholding female only spaces. The fact is more privileged people are not likely to end up in a hostel, prison or psychiatric ward and have to share with men.

Wait.... you’re offended that someone has noticed that you’re not very feminist (what with that misogynistic detour about ‘prime victim status’).... but you say yourself you’re not a feminist.... so theunknown is correct, you’re not a feminist? So how is it a problem that she noticed and pointed it out?

If you’re not a feminist, please stop trying to control feminist discussion. You are ALWAYS welcome to join in, however you ‘identify’, as long as you’re genuine about it and you bring your A game if you wish to debate contrary points.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-51248684 here you

Here you go it should have said

Yes I agree. I would like to see more wide ranging feminist discussion too. Some of the gender stuff touches on feminism, but some of it is actually anti feminist, imo.

See, this is part of the problem with what FWR has become IMO. Posters who try and define 'what a feminist is' based on their own narrow viewpoint.

I don't actually support self-ID, but I'm not pompous enough to try and police the definition of feminism.

You've veered very close to attempting to police the definition of feminism in this thread. Your (demonstrably ridiculous) comments about self ID not being relevant to the most vulnerable women were essentially aimed at telling other posters they're doing feminism wrong. You went around the houses a bit more than the poster who told you you're not a feminist, apparently correctly so unlike you she wasn't even wrong. But the sentiment is the same.

Worrying about toilets is a privilege IMO and not even fifth on the list for most genuinely struggling women

I spend most of my day tying myself in knots worrying about and caring for my disabled son - his health, his education, how his behaviour affects his sisters, his future. I spend half my time at meetings and appointments fighting for support. I work very part time in early years watching families struggle, and trying to help support children. I have campaigned and attended meetings and on issues such as the NHS and SEN provision in our area.

Please don't go on about struggles and privilege.

I was very glad I was able to ask Jess Phillip's a question about SEN issues on the webchat, but I was also immensely glad that the questions over self ID were also asked.

I have 2 daughter's and the conversations we have had with them have been informed by conversations about gender on the FWR board. I don't post a lot on there, but am very glad that it exists as it does, as a place where these conversations can happen, because I really don't see them happening in this way anywhere else.

Where else are these discussions happening?

Most people, sorry, women acknowledge that selfID poses a significant threat to safety, this shouldn’t be stowed away in some dark corner like the Meghan and Harry threads!

You just have to look at half the content on the e relationship board to see that men accessing women’s protected spaces under the guise of inclusivity is just daft.

..and it isn't just about toilets, which you would know if you read the posts. This is about the redefinition of woman to always include male. Changes to the law that remove, reduce or nullify the scant rights and protections women have. The enforcing of sexist stereotypes and the policing of peoples thoughts. So much more at the heart of which is the safeguarding of our children.

Try reading a thread op, you may be surprised.

Where else are these discussions happening?

Yes, this is an important point. There are so many feminist spaces on the internet where the self ID issue and vulnerable women being raped in prison and excluded from hostels because of the presence of males are ignored. Sometimes even actively denied. Anyone wanting that particular brand of feminism for whatever reason has lots of options. Yet we see so many instances of people posting on here, complaining about ours Doing It Wrong instead of using one of the arenas more suited to their preferences. Naturally, we are going to question why.

The M&H thread is on part 14.

Being in the appropriate topic has not dimisnished traffic to it.

Do you really think that people are only so tangentially interested in gender that they will not be bothered to continue to post in whatever topic MNHQ decide?

This question is at heart how MN arranges its talk boards (and they typically do put dominant issues into their own dedicated topic. The Brexit topic could also be in In The News or Politics - doesn't diminish the importance of any of them)

I think it would be better in a separate topic

the case of Harry the Owl and freedom of speech,

places on all women shortlists and competitive sports being taken from our girls,
girl guides allowing trans girls to share sleeping spaces with our daughters.

These things are already happening. Self ID isn't a thing yet and the Equality Act is already bring abused.

How can you say it's all about toilets with a straight face?