Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Anyone found guilty you think is innocent?

279 replies

louise5754 · 15/01/2020 16:29

Lots of crime series around lately.

It does make you think especially ones where people have been accused of murder but there was no body or DNA.

OP posts:
BilboBercow · 15/01/2020 23:39

I have serious doubts about Luke Mitchell's conviction. It's not conceivable to me that a 15 year old could brutally murder and mutilate someone and walk away without either leaving his own DNA or taking any of Jodi's with him.
The circumstantial evidence against him was flimsy at best. I feel like his face fit because he was a goth and a difficult, unlikable lad.

Rastamousehat · 15/01/2020 23:40

*Snowmonster

I always thought Dr David Kelly, weapons of mass destruction scientist was murdered to stop him speaking out - it was too damaging to the Blair government so he was bumped off and made to look like a suicide.*
Yes I thought this too

Retroflex · 15/01/2020 23:55

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

pigdogridesagain · 15/01/2020 23:59

@karencantobe I completely agree about cliff Richard, there is something very off about him.

SheSawHorsesHorsesHorses · 16/01/2020 00:26

pigdogridesagain

In what way? I cannot help but remember Joanna Yates' landlord who "seemed off" because he was a bit weird but was innocent. Mind you, we only have the info the media gives us. So we will never know. I just do not believe the accuser's allegation- did not make sense. assaulted at a big Christian rally? with lots of potential witnesses? just seems strange and unlikely. paedophiles groom children and make sure they get them alone to abuse them.

Graphista · 16/01/2020 00:35

Louise Woodward - the nanny accused of shaking a baby to death.

I was off work sick when the trial was on and watched it in a very concentrated way.

There were a number of issues that her defence lawyers absolutely should have ripped to shreds! “Lost” crucial evidence, witnesses not called, prosecution witnesses poorly cross examined if at all, the British/American English language barrier exploited many times by the prosecution lawyer...

I feel certain it was actually one of the parents IF there were a perpetrator - we’ve since had new discoveries re shaken baby syndrome that show that certain biological “evidence” that has been used in many of these cases to convict mainly women is now known to be possible to occur naturally in some babies.

Shocking miscarriage of justice in my opinion - even the original jury weren’t 100%

“I’m not sure about Max Clifford. I think perhaps he had a lot of dirt on a lot of powerful people and they wanted him kept quiet. And then of course he died in prison. How convenient.” I too found this one quite dubious and as a csa survivor myself I very much err on the side of “I believe you” but this one just didn’t feel right at all.

No single “type” of evidence should be enough to convict anyone, not a jailhouse confession (deeply dubious), not a pressured confession in custody, not witness evidence (notoriously unreliable), not cctv (again far from perfect and in this digital age very easy to falsify), not “expert testimony” (remember professor sir Roy meadow?) not even fingerprints or dna (which can very easily be planted or falsified or simply poorly collected and processed) - because every single one of these has a human element! And humans not just criminals are fallible, dishonest, have agendas etc

Did anyone see that csi:ny episode where they wrongly thought that there was a serial killer using various methods? Turned out to be someone in the factory making the swabs was ignoring the rules on contamination prevention! Well here’s the shocker - that apparently did happen! The episode dramatised it to the point it became public and caused a scandal for iirc DA and chief of police. In real life the issue was investigated before it reached that point and the cause of the weirdly matching dna discovered early on and rightly found to be down to a tech fucking up.

Dna can be replicated, planted, wrongly recorded etc.

NO evidence is perfect.

It’s incredibly hard to even get the police to take historical sexual abuse cases on, yes due to the lack of evidence and witness/accuser testimony can be unreliable - memory is a very odd thing. I forgot a lot of what happened until I had dd and then I’d get flashes of things but some incidents I have misremembered when they happened, but I firmly believe I’m right THAT they DID happen and I absolutely know who the perpetrator was

“paedophiles groom children and make sure they get them alone to abuse them.” Oh wow really?! And what is your experience or qualifications in this realm?

Because not only as a csa survivor but someone who’s worked in child protection I can assure you that you’re WRONG!

I find that comment not only ignorant but really fucking offensive!

I was molested when other adults were present, many of us were, there’s quite a few of us on mn with similar experiences - it’s why on threads about potential/known abusers we caution ops not to be lulled into a false sense of security on this. That “I’ll keep an eye and he’ll never be alone with them” isn’t good enough.

Several of saviles victims iirc were molested in the studios while the cameras were on!

STOP perpetuating abuse myths - they do FAR more harm than you can possibly imagine!

karencantobe · 16/01/2020 00:35

Joanna Yates landlord was not at all off, just a bit eccentric.

pigdogridesagain · 16/01/2020 00:42

@SheSawHorsesHorsesHorses he just looks dead behind the eyes! There's something about him that makes my skin crawl. I would be very surprised if it doesn't all come out after he's gone, just like jimmy saville.

karencantobe · 16/01/2020 00:43

@SheSawHorsesHorsesHorses I have no idea if those specific accusations are true. But Jimmy Salville groped girls on camera. There is a certain kind of paedophile who gets a thrill from getting away with abusing kids when they are at a high risk of being caught. I remember another minor celebrity in the 80s who was accused of putting his fingers inside a girls genitals in a crowded swimming pool.

ParkheadParadise · 16/01/2020 00:45

@Retroflex
The not proven verdict should be abolished.
In our case I knew it wouldn't be good because none of the jury looked in our direction when they came back in.
The not proven verdict for us as a family was absolutely devastating.
There was no justice and he walked free.

TinklyLittleLaugh · 16/01/2020 00:46

I remember that. At the time I think the public nature of it made people think it was unlikely to be true. Nowadays we are more clued up about how .predators work.

Retroflex · 16/01/2020 00:52

@ParkheadParadise I completely agree that it should be abolished, but then "not proven" isn't the same as "not guilty" I suppose... The jurors are saying that they believe that the person "might" be guilty, but there wasn't enough evidence to convict, whereas if we abolished that verdict, and the jury couldn't be sure without any doubts whatsoever, then the person would have a verdict pretty much saying they were innocent, which again may not be true, they might have thought they were guilty, they just didn't have enough proof... So it's hard... I think a not guilty would be worse than a not proven personally...

OlaEliza · 16/01/2020 00:58

Henry Lee Lukas. He must have been guilty of murdering the gf and landlady, but I don't think he killed any of the others.

karencantobe · 16/01/2020 01:02

@TinklyLittleLaugh I agree, I think too many people saw it as inconceivable that a minor celebrity would sexually abuse a strangers child in a crowded swimming pool. I think he got convicted later of other sexual abuse charges against kids?
But sad to see some still believing myths on here, because it does make their children more vulnerable.

I also think there is an enormous difference between eccentricity which was Joanna Yates landlord, and the very off dangerous feeling you get sometimes from individuals. The latter is I think about recognising that someone is a predator and is looking at you as prey.
With paedophiles, you can see when an adult is looking in a sexual way at a kid. I saw it plenty of times when I was about 12/13, and I have seen it as an adult. For example once on holiday abroad there was a group of parents and kids and one dad was being just creepy with his daughter. I think the other kids recognised it as well. But some adults can be totally clueless about recognising this.

Equanimitas · 16/01/2020 01:02

I never thought Sion Jenkins was guilty: the timeline simply didn't allow for it. On the other hand, Jeremy Bamber was obviously guilty as hell.

karencantobe · 16/01/2020 01:03

@OlaEliza I totally agree. He was a fantasist aided by lazy police who just wanted murders cleared up.

ParkheadParadise · 16/01/2020 01:04

@Retroflex
Unfortunately for us, the evil bastard lived on the same street as my sister. Everytime he walked by her house he shouting I'm a free man.
Before the trial i actually didn't care what happened to him i believed prison was an easy option for him, 3 meals a day and a roof over his head.
I soon changed my thoughts when the reality was i had to face him constantly.

Christmadtree · 16/01/2020 01:17

I'm from the same area as Margaret Fleming originally, never knew her to speak to but knew her face around town type of thing. Everyone here is very sure of Avril and Eddie's guilt. Have been since she was classed as missing.

@lyralalala you are right in that it's all circumstantial evidence. I think the way he acted in court also put a nail in his own coffin. There was a lot more circumstantial evidence that the police pulled together but that they decided not to use in the court case for one reason or another. That's why the police were able to bring charges in the first place, as I think it's only the 2nd or 3rd murder charge in Scottish history without a body.

It was so well publicised here all through the investigation, I wouldn't be surprised if the jury had been following it for some time in the papers before the actual trial, which will have helped secure the conviction

turnedabout · 16/01/2020 01:35

Have changed my name for fear of what I'm about to say (which in itself speaks volumes).

In my opinion I believe certain political figures in Northern Ireland are guilty of many many murders for which they have never been held responsible

Looking at you Sinn Fein and DUP

The Derry MPs know fine well the person in the community who killed that poor girl Lyra McKee - will those MPs stand up and speak out? Nope! They, like everyone else living there are too scared, scared for the lives of themselves and their loved ones if they get found out as a 'tout'.
Living in constant fear of murdering thugs.

But the Giants Causeway is lovely and the golf courses are great. FFS.

Judashascomeintosomemoney · 16/01/2020 02:09

His "confession brag" contained very specific details that were never released to the public for obvious reasons
This is the opposite of what actually happened. Every one of the five allegedly ‘unknown’ points of the ‘confession’ had appeared in the press previously. Different reports, different days and different newspapers, but they’d all been there. Some of it was even in the press on the same day as the day the ‘confession’ supposedly took place.

lyralalala · 16/01/2020 02:15

@Christmadtree His behaviour in court was a massive shot in his own foot!

When even your own lawyer starts his summing up with “You might not like him...” then you know you are in trouble

It’s a bit like the Suzanne Pilley case. It completely seems like David Gilroy murdered her, he is absolutely the most logical person and there are massive holes in his whereabouts for the day, but it does make me wonder about how safe a murder conviction can be when there’s no body and circumstantial evidence

louise5754 · 16/01/2020 07:08

@WTF0ver oh yes how could I have forgotten

OP posts:
Accidentalaccountant · 16/01/2020 07:24

Have any of you say on a jury? Truly frightening they decide someone's fate. I did years ago. Reasons my fellow jurors wanted to find him guilty
We wouldn't be here otherwise
He has that look in his eye
Can't you 2 just agree with the rest of us? I want to get home in time for coronation street
I was one of the two _ ended up with hung jury

MurrayTheMonk · 16/01/2020 07:29

I think Rudy actually killed Meredith Kercher but Amanda Knox was involved and tried to help cover it up.

I listened to serial and thought Adnan was guilty-my friend thought the opposite-I dont think we'll ever know the truth on that one.

I'm 100% convinced that when 'the files' are released in 60 years time or whatever, it will emerge the David Kelly was bumped off by the government. That just didn't add up at all.

Linguaphile · 16/01/2020 07:31

Another here for Adnan Sayed. I’m not 100% convinced he’s innocent, but I really don’t know how they found him guilty beyond a shadow of doubt.

Conversely, Chris Dawson from the Teacher’s Pet seems obviously guilty. Will follow that trial with interest.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.

Swipe left for the next trending thread