AIBU pregnancy with an unsuitable man ALL over this site

[SiriusBlack94]

It amazes me that EVERY day there are multiple posts with...

My DH is so lazy —— I’m 30 weeks pregnant
My DH is a narcissist how can I leave him —- I have a baby on the way
I don’t love my DH anymore - but I’m 28 weeks pregnant
DH drinking all the time/doing drugs/ controlling/ doesn’t help around the house —- but I’m pregnant.

Like seriously. Why are women so casual about getting pregnant with men that aren’t suited to them or who they aren’t in a loving relationship with. I know in some cases a man can turn abusive during pregnancy but in the majority of cases it’s things like ‘my DH drinks 4 times a week’ or ‘my DH never helps around the house’ which you would’ve KNOWN but still got pregnant.

I just don’t understand it and they are then tying themselves with often multiple children to these men.

no woman is empowered by another women's scorn and judgement. Sometimes fear of judgement from other women serves to silence women from seeking support. Few will put the call for support out there if they fear they will be judged about partnering with men and experiencing domestic violence or crap relationships.

This ^^

Throughout my life I have (stupidly) told my mother about just a few of the many times I have been variously abused by men. Her response was one of scorn, annoyance, rolling her eyes and telling me to brush it off “stiff upper lip and all that”, and also - amazingly - to submit to my aggressor because I was “lucky” to have him. Most people think she’s a “normal” mother. When this is your “normal” since birth from your most significant female role model, and becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy because you tolerate more and more shit behaviour as your self-esteem worsens and worsens, it’s very difficult to come to terms with the fact this is NOT normal and you deserve better. If ever.

This is not something someone with “good parents” will understand. I get it. Though compassion is usually a trait held by those who are so lucky. Seems to be lacking here though.

I think that’s all anyone is expressing @user1480880826 Frustration ... it’s almost the worst kind of self harm because even if you get rid of the abuser you’re still living with his child as a constant reminder. I don’t know how women manage tyat tbh

The first sign of my ex's controlling abusive behaviour is when he kicked me in the stomach at 18 weeks pregnant.

Before then he was completely charming if a little hapless. We had been together 4 years and lived together a year

I disagree @Inliverpool1. People in this thread are expressing frustration at the “bad decisions” of women. My frustration is with women who start threads like this with the express purpose of blaming other women for the terrible behaviour of men.

I think lilygolightly has the right idea.

I think there are very few men who really want to play a 50:50 role in child rearing.

There are many women for whom having a child is so important they just ignore that the man is not "suitable" or hope he changes. That is why women are in a worse position than a lot of men.

I think there are two possibilities to deal with this, either do not get pregnant or basically expect to do the work yourself alone.

But hardly anybody is blaming them for the mans behaviour, no one I can see.

They are saying that women are making their own decisions to have children in relationships that they know are toxic or failing. These are informed decisions made with foresight and clarity. Pps give them options to leave and they just deflect or reject it.

The only victims are the children.

Do you really believe women are constantly hapless victims buffeted through life on the actions of men ?

There's a big middle ground between 'women are constantly hapless victims' and 'these are informed decisions made with foresight and clarity' though.

Violence can definitely come out of the blue, my exh became violent after 13yrs together - no kids involved thankfully.

But other than that issue, I agree with the OP, why have kids with someone who has drink and drug problems, is lazy as fuck or is controlling?

What irritates me even more are the threads about not being able to afford rent etc yet they are several weeks pregnant with a planned baby. People don't seem to be able to take responsibility for their actions any more and expect to be bailed out by others.

Had I access to resource like Mumsnet when I was a young woman I like to think that I would have been able to avoid all sorts of situations which now astonish me

I totally agree @ UYScuti but equally does that mean we wouldn’t have our kids too ?

Gosh, this is quite the can of worms. I have RTFT pretty much, and am still unsure if the OP is U or NBU because as many have pointed out, it's massively complex.

At 51 I am considered pretty "wise" with my life somewhat together, but I have had my share of unsuitable relationships, and I am aware that sometimes my driving force is to avoid being considered heartless or unreasonable or controlling when I have tried to assert myself or put boundaries in place.

My mother had to be the driving force in her marriage because unbeknownst to her my Dad's mental health was deteriorating to the point of breakdown. Her childhood wasn't great, mine was disciplined and mistakes were made. Her attitude is that men need to be manipulated and guided - I feel this is unfair to men - they are infantilised by this attitude and it scuppers any progress towards equality between the sexes and in relationships.

At the same time, I feel a conditioned duty to support, fix, organise and nurture not just in my relationships but in my wider social interaction. I'm still working on that.

It can be very difficult to assert oneself in what one feels is a reasonable manner when there is a chorus of people suggesting that one is being selfish by refusing to help or support people one is involved with.

I agree that bringing a child into a relationship where the father figure is displaying all the traits of a child himself is undesirable, but I partly feel there is a huge imbalance here - women who don't change and modify their lifestyles to put a child front and centre are very harshly judged while men seem to get much more leeway for the huge change parenthood brings. The mourning of their freedom is a huge trope in our cultural media narrative, and the idea that they are being trapped in some way, even if they claim to be willing to raise a family.

Having children isn't really celebrated or supported as a natural part of life any more - paradoxically it is now seen as a selfish choice or a ball and chain - I'm not surprised there is a ton of muddled thinking around the whole exercise as we are bombarded all the time with "ideals" in choice of lifestyle that often do not begin to reflect reality.

We are conditioned on so many levels, both men and women, and it is virtually impossible to totally swim against a tide that pulls us throughout our lives.

Some posts have mentioned that it is anti-feminist and infantilises women who do not "make the right choices" with regards to their partners to say that they are trapped by a patriarchal society; I agree up to a point, but women who do make a stand even before they have children have been abused and murdered in the process. Women who reject "unsuitable" men have been stalked and in some cases accused of being too picky.

You could reject every unsuitable man and still end up with someone who is great on paper then changes for the worse - and this point means that surely, while we empower women to make the "right" choices, we should also be analysing why men are like this at all, and why women feel duty bound to put up with it.

I will just add in the disclaimer that NAMALT nor all women, and yes, unpleasant behaviours and personality traits occur in both sexes and can manifest abusively. However, while statistics tip the balance we need to understand why and work towards change for the sake of all humans.

Thinking back to my childhood, I had a male cousin who was one month older than me, and a female 18 months younger. he didn't have to wash up after family meals, but I and my female cousin did. His academic achievements were lauded - ours were expected. He stayed up later than we did - I was expected to show solidarity with my younger female cousin and go to bed early with her. I resented this massively, and became a "feminist" as a teenager. I was regarded as naive and rebellious because the status quo should not be challenged. Again paradoxically, men were on a pedestal but it was only because allegedly the women in the family allowed them to think they were.

Not gonna lie, I am still confused and occasionally tripped up by it all. As Facebook often opines regarding relationship statuses "It's complicated".

Very true User1480880826 it makes me feel so sad that women shame other women for partnering with morons and staying in shit relationships, yet as Stophuggingme says , - It could be any one of us, - had we been born into a different family, different misogynistic culture, different background with soul destroying after soul destroying life experiences.

Why are we so cruel to judge women when they are down? Why do we find it so hard to imagine that others experiences different pressures and influences that drive their decisions, and are often being manipulated while making those decisions??
It is true what cheesydoesit and others say that for some, standards are set so low that women are taught to laugh it off or be grateful for the crumbs of relationship equality they get

Inliverpool is right we need to teach our sons to step up their game. Yet we know as LakieLady says , love is blind sometimes , and mistaken beliefs unfold as broken dreams for a happy realtionahip before our eyes.

bringing a child into a situation where the relationship is bad or a woman KNOWS it’s not a good situation/relationship just to experience being a mum is not fair on the child in my opinion and is wrong move by the woman who then ends up stuck tied to him. I wouldn’t have a child with an unsuitable partner for the sake of it

Unless youve been in an abusive relationship i dont think you understand it

From an outside view it is as simple as just leaving and horrifying at the thought of bringing a child into it ---- i look back now and cant believe i had children with a monster

But at the time its not so simple. You believe them that their the best thing to happen to you, no one else would want you, your horrible etc etc. Also if you have any fertiltiy issues ( I have PCOS ) that makes a difference

I had my first 2 DC with him because i believed i would never have a family with anybody else. My 3rd DC was a surprise, i had already left him when i found out i was pregnant.

My first DC died 2 hours after he was born which made me even more desperste for a baby. Looking back i cant believe i had children with such a monster but at the time i just didnt see it like that, i just wanted a happy family

You think things will change and get better once you have DC, sadly it doesnt. But you think and hope it will. If you dont have much support or you have a toxic family, half of this behaviour is "normal" to you anyway.

I managed to escape when my DC were 2.6 and 8 months old. It went to court he was found guilty and court ordered not to contact me or the children. We had mived far away and started a brand new life, we literally didnt know a soul when we moved around here

But i dont judge woman who cant or dont leave because its so frightening. Even thoigh he was the person who hurt me he was the person who made me feel safe too. Even though i hated what he did to me and he nade me miserable i found it really hard to leave him and our life.

Even though you know their abusive, you hope they wjll change, things will be different,

They wear you down over time, false promises, throw in children, the idea of a "happy family, no support, keeping up appearances

Its a hard life to live and an even harder life to leave.

In my case, it was nativity and stupidity. Had unprotected sex with a man I’d been with for three weeks.

Very, very fortunately he is an amazing dad, and 8 years later, an amazing husband but he could quite easily have been abusive, lazy, or whatever else and I would have been stuck having him as part of my life forever.

Agree 53rdWay women are not constantly hapless victims, nor are men always abusive or selfish shitheads. OldQueen discusses how we are often driven to approach our choices by unseen societal pressures. Understanding why some men ( or women) act like shitheads in relationships, and some women stay in relationships and have children that makis more complicated , the more angles we consider.

Agree with OldQueen we should be analysing both sides of the coin, for a clearer perspective....why men are like this at all, and why are women duty bound to put up with such shit

It's frustrating reading this thread when people keep mentioning abuse happening after pregnancy etc. How many times does it need to be stated that that is not what we're discussing?

We need to be aiming for men and women to both set themselves standards when choosing when to have a baby and who with. A child honestly doesn't deserve to be conceived in such dire circumstances.

Sure, mistakes happen. People can become arseholes after a child is born, etc. But let's start aiming for the best to begin with, rather than gathering scraps and hoping they'll transform into something they will never be. At least that way, everyone did their best. If you have kids with a shit partner, you're just doomed from the start.

And by this, I don't necessarily mean people having lots of money, etc. Two parents ideally working. A secure home. A solid and loving relationship. Trust. Partners doing their best to look after their health. These are such basic things but so important. We all need to encourage everyone to try to be better.

I know in some cases a man can turn abusive during pregnancy but in the majority of cases it’s things like ‘my DH drinks 4 times a week’ or ‘my DH never helps around the house’ which you would’ve KNOWN but still got pregnant.

Because the posts we see about pregnant women with crap partners are self-selecting.

All the women who decided NOT to get pregnant because their DP would be a useless dad don't need to create threads here.
Ditto all the women who got pregnant & whose DP's became excellent dads & chore sharers.

Leaving us with the women who either messed up by getting pregnant by a useless manchild or abuser, OR who were gulled into doing so by the textbook abuser's cycle of ramping up the bad stuff once the woman is pregnant & more dependent/vulnerable.

What irritates me even more are the threads about not being able to afford rent etc yet they are several weeks pregnant with a planned baby. People don't seem to be able to take responsibility for their actions any more and expect to be bailed out by others.

There's one running at the moment. Op is 5 weeks pregnant, both at uni, can't afford rent and parents gave said they can't live at home once baby is born. Terrible situation. Op asking how she can get a council house. However, reading her previous posts, they've been actively trying to conceive for a year, including her asking, 6 months ago, what country she could buy clomid over the counter. So she's been trying to conceive for a year, including trying to buy fertility drugs, and now she's pregnant realises that she can't afford to live????

Something else that I think is underestimated is that we are basically instinctively driven animals, with evolved capacity of reason of course, but hormones and the inbuilt drive to procreate may also be a factor in some decisions. There have been cases of women who are so desperate to have a baby that they steal them or in some hideous cases have murdered pregnant women and taken the baby. I know these are extreme examples, but working out the true reasons behind a woman having a baby despite it obviously being the worst possible decision in her situation may be extremely difficult.

I personally have difficulty imagining that my only function or reward in life would be to reproduce, although now my DC is an adult, I have felt a void and a small loss of purpose - but I recognise that is my own issue and one to work on, I'm not about to start micro-managing his life nor do I feel the need to fill the void with another baby - not that it's physically possible even at my age. Just pointing out that instincts plus societal expectation are powerful things and can get into our psyches even without being conscious of them; our identities are multi-faceted and who knows what makes one of those facets loom large and potentially over-ride reason?

That said, even suggesting or acknowledging these things left women vulnerable to cries of hysteria for so long and the assumption that we are totally at the mercy of our reproductive systems is part of the reason women have been oppressed and abused throughout history - and there is still an under-lying flavour of that despite the progress made - you've only got to read the threads about women who have been mis-diagnosed physically or dismissed because they also have a mental health condition on a couple of threads here to see it. It's so complicated when you really start to think about it - and quite depressing.

Men are also not immune - there is no logic in a man having multiple children with different women, but some do - is it a warped display of power and virility, or low self-esteem in them too? How does one explain that? The main difference is that society doesn't demand they physically care for or support these children - they may judge and squeeze them financially, but fear of a child being abused by a man who doesn't want it seems to over-ride the thought that men should be compelled in the same way to look after their progeny. Not saying that women aren't capable of harming their own children of course, but again, statistically, it's less prevalent without a severe mental health issue or ingrained psychopathy perhaps.

Sorry I've gone down quite a dark rabbit hole there - apologies to anyone upset by my musings.

messolini9 is right.

However, there is also a lot of terrible advice given to people in non-abusive situations that are filled with warning signs that maybe a baby isn't wise.

E.g. posters who post saying they really want a baby but neither work (for a range of reasons from understandable reasons and unfortunate circumstances through to being idle), there's problems paying rent, ongoing housing issues, there's ongoing mental health or physical health issues that haven't been resolved, they think they can't afford child care once the baby is here or will be dependent on their mother in law doing childcare and she is already holding it over them. There may be trust issues in the on/off relationship, DP is more bothered about sitting on his X box for 7 hours at a time whilst the OP does all the wife work. The whole post has a number of warning signs that this isn't a good situation

Then posters reply with things like:
Theres never a perfect time for a baby. If you want to have one you'll find a way

Babies don't need lots of stuff. They need love, food and a roof over their heads
Do what's right for you. Lots of DPs don't want a baby but they come round when given an ultimatum
Men step up when the baby is here because they haven't got a choice. He'll have to get a job because the baby will need nappies etc
It might be hard for a year but then there's their whole life ahead of them and they'll not remember having second hand baby grows
you can ask friends and family for second hand baby clothes, toys and nursery furniture. You don't have to splash the cash when the baby arrives

And when people point out that babies become toddlers and primary children and teenagers and gradually cost more so a long term plan is probably advisable they get:
so only rich people should have children then? Way to start shaming poor people. Some of you are so judgey. I bet you look down on people with low incomes / mental health issues / disability. Should women sacrifice ever having children just to keep some judgey snobs happy?

I'm sure it makes people feel great to cheerlead behind a screen, but I'd bet the outcome of "just have a baby" is very rarely a loving DP who does their fair share in the house, financial security and long term stability.

I have a friend who has 5 children with several different men, none of whom are still on the scene. She also has had a couple of miscarriages too.
She is a really lovely person and a good mum, but she has no idea how to "do" relationships or how to pick a nice man. It's no wonder as she had a terrible upbringing and never saw good examples of relationships.
She is desperate for love and so she'll fall for anyone who shows her a bit of attention. Most of the time they're useless jerks who end up treating her badly and she never learns.

OldQueen1969

The problem with the argument of animal instinct is that you can't only use that argument for women. If women's natural desires and instincts override socialisation then surely men can use the same argument too?

Ultimately we expect members of civilised society to control their natural instincts rather than to succumb to them don't we?

gabsdot45
surely if she could read some threads here she'd see the light?

I chose a somewhat unsuitable partner to have my child with. I am very maternal and have very low self esteem when it comes to men due to childhood issues. I loved my partner almost to the point of obsession. I looked after him like he was my child and I was fine with that because I wanted to feel needed and I also wanted a child. Any bad thing he said or did, I clung onto him more because I was scared of him leaving me. It became an obsession to get him to love me as much as I loved him. I am an intelligent person but it was deep rooted and keeping him happy was a compulsion. I wanted his child because I was obsessed with him and because I wanted to be tied to him or rather him to me forever. Looking back it is hard to explain but I know my ‘love’ for him was definitely a fallout from my childhood. Once our child was born, everything changed. I never really asked for his support but then I wanted it. And he can’t cope with responsibility, he needs to be looked after by a stronger person. The dynamic had to stay the same to work. But I have become more and more resentful of him as I want to take less responsibility for everything and he has become more and more resentful as I expect more from him. We are at a point where we hate each other now and I dream of a balanced equal relationship with someone kind and less self centred. But I feel like I made my bed and I need to lie in it. Plus deep down, I still don’t really believe I deserve more.