SNP and Scotland leaving U.K.

[Hester54]

AIBU to not understand Scotland wishing to leave the U.K., can someone explain to me without being nasty or patronising, why is Scotland’s problem with the U.K.? Even before the U.K. ref

Well Scotland doesn't want to leave the UK as evidenced by the independence referendum in 2014.

We were repeatedly told that the only way to stay in the EU was to vote No. I know several people who voted no for this reason, now look what's happened.

@geekone
there are people in Scotland who are pretty much racist and hate all English people just because and they make up a large proportion of the 45!
Where did you get this figure from? Is this your own personal feeling or the result perhaps of an opinion poll? I'm guessing the former I don't disagree with you at all that there are racists in Scotland (the Brexit kerfuffle certainly made it clear there are some in England too) but you have just claimed that at least half of 45% of the population are racist!

A bit like brexit, Scottish independence provides a chance (positively or negatively) to actually effect a major change in society for the benefit of society rather than business?

This is what some people don't seem to get about brexit- a lot voted against the status quo/ anti establishment. Scottish independence is almost the Scottish voting population's only chance to create change. Our votes don't count any other way.

And. A vote for SNP this time round doesn't necessarily mean you're pro independence. But SNP mp's do a better job in Westminster representing Scotland than any other MP.

And. Bojo et al are the antithesis of the Scottish psyche.

Full Fact Nov 2019:

"Nicola Sturgeon was challenged on tonight’s BBC Question Time about Scotland’s high budget deficit, after an audience member pointed out it would need to bring its deficit down to levels acceptable to the EU if it wanted to join. She argued that “that is a deficit that has been accrued under the Westminster system of government”."

"Scotland’s net fiscal deficit is higher than that of the UK as a whole, as a proportion of the size of its economy. In 2018/19 it’s “deficit” was between 7 and 8.5% of its economy, depending on whether and how you count revenues from North Sea oil. By contrast, the overall UK budget deficit is expected to be about 2% of GDP in the same year."

"The underlying argument here is that the deficit faced by an independent Scotland could be lower than it has as part of the UK, but independent experts have suggested this is unlikely to be the case."

"As the Institute for Fiscal Studies has pointed out in the past, an independent Scotland would face pressures on its budget and would need to take action either by raising taxes or cutting public spending." ...

fullfact.org/electionlive/2019/nov/22/bbc-question-time-leaders-special-nicola-sturgeon-fact-checked/

Yes, that's the GERS figures I was talking about. The are given to the Scottish gov by Whitehall, based on estimates and is the spending done by UK gov on behalf of Scotland. If you've got time I'd recommend reading them in full. Then wonder why the UK gov won't give accurate figures.

They do not include all money generated by Scotland. Oh, and they are of no relevance to an independent Scotland because these are things the UK gov chose to spend on. Obviously the Scot gov would have a different agenda.

TooTrueToBeGood No I’m not, ignorant of your issues with the U.K. I my be, that’s why I’m asking, I don’t want the U.K. to break up, I wish people wouldn’t bring up the EU referendum as the independence vote was before that, so the desire to leave the U.K. was not related to the the EU.

"I wish people wouldn’t bring up the EU referendum as the independence vote was before that, so the desire to leave the U.K. was not related to the the EU."

And how do you know this? Why are you bothering to ask (if this isn't a troll thread) if you won't accept what people are telling you?

By contrast, the overall UK budget deficit is expected to be about 2% of GDP in the same year

That performance is due in no small part to the Westminster government imposing austerity on it's people, with the most vulnerable in society feeling the most pain. Hardly something to be proud of. Holyrood has done quite a lot to try and counter the effects of austerity as best it can and the higher deficit (the accuracy of which is debatable anyway) is at least partly attributable to that.

I wish people wouldn’t bring up the EU referendum as the independence vote was before that, so the desire to leave the U.K. was not related to the the EU.

Umm...are you deliberately ignoring that I have said that Scotland was told that the ONLY way to stay in the EU was to vote No?

SlightlyStaleCocoPops There seems to be different reasons for wanting to be independent and some people just want independence for independence sake, the vote in 2014 was before the referendum was even mentioned, so that’s why it’s not relevant, I don’t want Scotland to leave, I’m just trying to understand why people want to leave, people have responded, should I just take one person’s reasons as talking for the whole of Scotland,
For bit of context, my father in law is Scottish and he doesn’t want to leave, but he has been in England for over 50 years

I wish people wouldn’t bring up the EU referendum as the independence vote was before that, so the desire to leave the U.K. was not related to the the EU

I think you're missing the point a lot of Scots only voted No in the 2014 indy ref because they were told that was the only way of staying in the EU. Look how that worked out!

Just saw this, another reason to get away from MPs like this.

For bit of context, my father in law is Scottish and he doesn’t want to leave, but he has been in England for over 50 years.

So his vote counts in the country in which he lives?

OP this might be helpful if you want to learn.

“ Even before the EU Referendum there was a wish to leave the U.K., you have your own Parliament and devolved powers, ability to set your own income tax, free prescription and uni places, genuinely trying to understand the wish to leave, not everyone voted Tory but will have to go along with their decision, isn’t that the way democracy works ?”

It’s not difficult to understand. With devolution, Scotland has very limited powers over its future. Westminster retains control of Scotland’s economy, digital infrastructure, immigration, foreign affairs, defence, welfare, and so much more.

Devolution has turned out to allow only for marginal mitigation of Westminster policies which don’t work for and are detrimental to Scotland.

Scotland is a country. It is twice the size of Dermark and 3 times the size of Belgium and has great resources and capabilities.

How can it be so hard to understand why Scotland would wish to be politically independent and self governing rather than governed by Westminster which is focused almost entirely on England’s interests?

@AudacityOfHope, look I know it was sweeping and a generalisation and maybe patronising but racism is bred into Scotland, it seems normal @TooTrueToBeGood ‘s PP is proof. Calling it English Wankerism and other lovely insults is actually common here it seeps into the culture FFS we sing about killing the English before each rugby match!
It’s undeniable!

“Don’t leave the UK, stay and lead the UK” - we got English Votes for English Laws and our MPs abused and derided in Parliament

“Stay in the UK to be guaranteed of staying in the EU” - we are being dragged out of the EU by England.

“Have devolution Max/near federalism, home rule for Scotland if you stay” - we got the watered down Smith Commission.

You broke all if your promises which won the 2014 referendum for the union. It’s your fault we are back here talking about it.

it seems normal @TooTrueToBeGood ‘s PP is proof. Calling it English Wankerism and other lovely insults is actually common here it seeps into the culture FFS we sing about killing the English before each rugby match!

Not my fault if you can't read or comprehend plain English. I even put in a disclaimer for the hard of thinking. I was not saying all English people are wankers, far from it. I was saying there is a certain type of patronising English person who feels entitled to think they know what is better for the Scots than the Scots do themselves. Those are the people I was classing as wankers.

That link to full fact links to a report from the IFS, who produced their data on GERS figures. These are the only figures available for UK spending.

If you fact check using the report from the IFS it does indeed repeat the story about the deficit. However, this is because they can only work with figures from GERS & OBR. No one knows the real figures except the UK gov.

One aspect that is accurate is that health spending is higher per head of population and this will always be the case due to the spread of the population. But, health spending comes from the block grant as my and is not included in UK spending.

“ some people just want independence for independence sake,”

Who wouldn’t?

We were repeatedly told that the only way to stay in the EU was to vote No. I know several people who voted no for this reason, now look what's happened

Cameron announced the EU referendum in early 2013.

Indyref 1 was in 2014.

Scotland's problem with the UK:

“Cameron announced the EU referendum in early 2013.

Indyref 1 was in 2014.”

So what?

You broke all if your promises which won the 2014 referendum for the union. It’s your fault we are back here talking about it

Who is "you"? I can assure you most people living in England, whether English or not, made no promises to Scotland whatsoever.

If you mean Cameron and Gordon Brown, then say so.