SNP and Scotland leaving U.K.

[Hester54]

AIBU to not understand Scotland wishing to leave the U.K., can someone explain to me without being nasty or patronising, why is Scotland’s problem with the U.K.? Even before the U.K. ref

I’m referring to Unionist politicians. Clear?

I want to live in a normal country.

Normal countries get to keep the income they generate and choose how they spend it - not have to pay it to their next door neighbour who keeps what they want and gives you back an amount of pocket money that they've decided for you. Then tell you you are poor and should be grateful for the "subsidies".

Normal countries get to borrow if they need to, and to manage their own deficit if they have one - not have the country next door borrow recklessly in your name, without consultation with you, and allocate a share of their debt to you, while insisting that when you spend your pocket money you cannot go a penny over budget.

Normal countries get to set their own income tax levels - not have the country next door set them for you, then allow you tinker a little, as long as you don't undercut the country next door. If they decide to put theirs up by 10% then you have to too.

Normal countries get the governments they vote for - not the government the country next door votes for.

Normal countries can choose not to have a nuclear deterrent - not have WMD housed on the doorstep of your largest city despite an overwhelming majority of your elected representatives and members of the public voting against them but, hey the country next door wants
them, so long as they are kept at a distance, so you have a nuclear deterrent. And to add insult to injury, the country next door decided that as the WMD are in your country, all the costs for it are allocated to your country. Yay, more deficit that we didn't choose to run up!

Normal countries get to make their own environmental decisions - not have the country next door dump all their nuclear waste in some of your most beautiful spots, or take away most of your powers on renewables without consultation, resulting in green energy projects having to be scrapped.

Normal governments get to make the decisions that are right for their country - not decisions that are right for the country next door but wrong for you, and if you don't like it then tough, you can mitigate or lump it.

Most countries have a government that is an established entity with fixed powers - not one that can have its powers removed at the whim of the country next door, leaving it little more power than a parish council.

Power devolved is power retained. Currently the Scottish government has only about 30% control of Scotland, the EU has 5% and Westminster has 65%. As a normal independent country we would have 100% control if out of the EU and 95% if in.

The UK state was supposed to be a union of two equal countries, but instead Westminster has chosen to ignore this and go by size instead. But as England has ten times the population of Scotland, we can be outvoted on every single issue at every turn, and this is especially galling on matters where we have opposing views, which seems to be everything at the moment.

So if we as the smaller country can never outvote you, it means we will never get what we vote for, only what you vote for. And then you have to ask yourself: if we can never get what we vote for, unless you happen to vote for it too, what is the point of being in as union? What exactly is in it for us? And the answer is: very little.

I want to live in a normal country.

So far over 40,000 million barrels of oil have been extracted from the North Sea, yet Scotland has an 8% deficit? Not much of an advert for the Union. is it?

Nearly 6 years later and those who seek independence are still having to explain themselves. Some of the attitudes on here are reason enough to want independence. It's not personal, it's political, economical. England is in political union it wants out of... Where else do you have a set up like the UK? What country would want another country having so much power over them? It's a joke. England wouldn't be so keen on the UK if it were the Scots made decisions for them, voting for a government they rarely get.

I'd rather the Scots and English were friends and allies, rather than one telling the other what to do.

No @TooTrueToBeGood it doesn’t matter is you caveat it, wankers are wankers you didn’t need to add English to that, add any other group of people gay, Muslim, etc that would be unacceptable, so as I said bred in to be normal!

slashlover I do genuinely want to know the benefits of keeping Scotland in the U.K? Apparently more money is put into Scotland than Scotland give to Westminister????

I have tattoos referring to Scotland, I don’t hate the English people, I think many English people are lovely, I just don’t want Westminister to rule us anymore.

'Scotland' doesn't want to leave the UK. The SNP do, and those who support independence do. Plenty of us want to stay in the UK. Last time we were asked, just over 55% of people who voted. The SNP had a very good night on Thursday, but 55% of people still voted for pro-UK parties. A landslide under first past the post for the SNP does not mean the whole country wants to leave.

StreetwiseHercules, it was in 2015 in the Tory’s manifesto if they got in they would hold an in out referendum,

Verse from Scottish song sung before rugby matches, which I assume is what pp was referring to regarding killing the English.

"O Flower of Scotland,
When will we see
Your like again,
That fought and died for,
Your wee bit Hill and Glen,
And stood against him,
Proud Edward's Army,
And sent him homeward,
To think again"
By comparison, verse from the national anthem:
"Lord, grant that Marshall Wade
May, by Thy mighty aid,
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the Queen"

Both refer to historical battles and I'm sure neither involve a desire to kill anyone today.

SNP 2016 manifesto:

We believe that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people – or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.

So far over 40,000 million barrels of oil have been extracted from the North Sea, yet Scotland has an 8% deficit? Not much of an advert for the Union. is it?

Oh, it's worse than that, we're 8% of the population but are supposed to be responsible for over 50% of the deficit. Either the figures are wrong, we're being being massively mismanaged by UK gov or both. This Union is not working for Scotland. Similar sized countries with similar economies are doing better, have similar social policies but aren't drowning in debt. It's a mystery.

It would be useful if England had something similar to GERS to see what share of the debt they are paying. I think currently there is some regional data and if it wasn't for London, most of England would be in major trouble.

@Hohonoshow yes both sides were sent home with no casualties, they just looked at each other and thought, you know maybe I won’t bother today! they went home because they got their arses handed to them! Many people died and we love to sing about it even when playing France or Fiji

This shows when the deficit went through the roof - did something happen in 2014 that might have been behind this type of spin...?

No TooTrueToBeGood it doesn’t matter is you caveat it, wankers are wankers you didn’t need to add English to that, add any other group of people gay, Muslim, etc that would be unacceptable, so as I said bred in to be normal!

Adding "English" to it was kind of necessary given the context and the point I was making. You're really just clutching at straws and trying to make much ado out of the fact that I dared to use a naughty word ya fuckwit.

OP, do you understand a bit better now or are you still all befuddled at the concept of anyone wanting political independence for the country they live in?

Racism is not bred into Scotland you raging fool

Quote from the BBC analysis below and a reality-check from a very, VERY, pro-Unionist:
Does Gers tell us what an independent Scotland would look like?
No. The Gers figures are not meant to be anything other than a way of showing the current position under the present arrangements.

I think England, Wales and NI should have a referendum on whether WE want to keep Scotland
I'm Welsh and want Scotland to stay for selfish reasons. Both are left-wing countries that usually end up with right wing governments. If Scotland goes, it's even harder to break the Tory stranglehold.

If Scotland does leave the union, I hope we do too. Support for Welsh independence is already rising.

@geekone I honestly don't understand your last reply to me

Spamantha* but that’s the thing though, if England voted for a Tory government, it doesn’t matter what Scotland, Wales or Ireland vote, they could all vote Labour but we would still end up with a Tory Government.

Yes please @TooTrueToBeGood and @AudacityOfHope please insult me personally. I don’t care about the language I Scottish for goodness sake I have heard it all before.
I think we are blind to anti-English culture (which I have referred to as racist call it what you want) in Scotland because it’s normal. It’s normal to support any team playing against England, it’s normal to describe someone and an English Wanker, it’s part (not all) of the reason some Scottish people want independence. When something becomes normal we don’t see it anymore and you don’t see it, it’s your normal!

Culturally and socially Scotland is a much kinder country. I'm English now living in Edinburgh. I loathe everything the current govt at Westminster stands for and abhor it's stoking up of the differences between us, it's cruelty to those less well off and the general attitude of spite. Don't tell me it's not like that! You only see it if you live with it every day and if you belong to one or more of the groups it hates.

Scotland isn't perfect of course. But we can work here in the areas we're experienced in (Benefits, Advice and Education) whereas in England everything has been cut to the bone. My daughter won't return to England because her husband is not white and therefore nor is their child. The abuse they had to go through before they left England was shameful. In Scotland, they welcome and encourage immigration. That comes from the top. Although we've only lived here for 3 years we're not going back to England. It's clear what sort of society is developing and we're too old and tired to try and make changes any more.

It’s normal to support any team playing against England,

Generally this is a joke, I've never seen someone actively attacked or berated for being English.

it’s normal to describe someone and an English Wanker

I've never heard anyone actually say this.

Yes please TooTrueToBeGood and AudacityOfHope please insult me personally.

I apologise. It was completely unnecessary for me to insult you. Unfortunately, your arguments are so blitheringly dense it's hard not to succumb. For example, you try and use the singing of Flower of Scotland at rugby matches as evidence of deep-seated anti-English hatred. I took a friend of mine to an England-Scotland game at Murrayfield about ten years ago. As I'd bought the tickets we were in the home stand. My friend, being a Londoner and very English with it, was a little apprehensive but I assured him there wouldn't be any problem. Do you know how much grief he got? None. The group of lads beside us made him more than welcome and even reassured him that in the unlikely event of his team scoring he should feel free to have a wee cheer.

scotland is not perfect. We have problems with sectarianism, we have our share of racists and bigots and there are certainly some who hate the English purely for being English. But only a feckin eejit who has never even been to a rugby match would try and use that as an example of the ugly side of Scottish culture.

Out of interest, how can I insult you impersonally? Just asking for future reference.

There is no real appetite for another referendum where I'm based. And I know a lot of people who voted for SNP as an anti-tory, rather than as a pro-nationalist vote.

The reasons some people want independence are complex but I genuinely believe that if there were to be another referendum it would still be no, and the SNP would find a reason to want a third referendum.