SNP and Scotland leaving U.K.

[Hester54]

AIBU to not understand Scotland wishing to leave the U.K., can someone explain to me without being nasty or patronising, why is Scotland’s problem with the U.K.? Even before the U.K. ref

I understand why you want independence but the SNP have done nothing to convince me with facts and figures that it is economically viable

First, let's just agree that the GERS figures do not represent the economic position of an independent Scotland for the simple reason that Scotland is not allowed access to all the economic levers. That's not just my view, it's the view of numerous bodies including Deloittes, one of the Big Four global consultancies who said, in reference to the 2017 figures: However, GERS data is produced for Scotland as part of the UK - it does not model scenarios for an independent Scotland in which the Scottish government would be enabled to make its own fiscal choices"

That is the crux of their unreliability - Scotland did not choose to and has never been consulted on money spent on (1) London Olympics (2 ) Crossrail (3) the Channel Tunnel (4) Trident (5) Buckingham Palace renovations (6) High Speed Rail 2 - London to Birmingham etc, but Scotland is still allocated a deduction against its budget as determined by Westminster.

And just in case you don't rate Deloitte's view, you could ask one of the highest profile supporters of GERS if he agrees (see pic)

And here's a handy visual of who actually does control the revenue and expenditure for Scotland as at 2018-19

Correction: image illustrates Devolved and Reserved Revenue in Scotland 2018-19

So if 68.1% of economic levers are outside of Scotland's control, how does it rank in other critical areas such as GDP and Trade? Here's a handy visual on Trade...

in UK terms trade performance looks like this...

I understand why you want independence but the SNP have done nothing to convince me with facts and figures that it is economically viable

And in terms of GDP...

Scotland is a medium sized country with a GDP the size of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovenia and Croatia combined Imagine what we could do if we had full control?

Facts and figures all look great, however, even if Independence meant a diet of turnips for the rest of my days I'd still vote yes. Why? Because any person with a shred of dignity would rather be from a country that stands on its own two feet than be ruled by Westminster. If all the other colonies can go it alone then so can we. And we shouldn't have to explain ourselves either. Sick of this crap. And what's worse is reading comments from fellow Scots that would rather take a beating from Westminster than give it a bash. Frankly, I think it's a bit of Stockholm syndrome on their part so probably deserve pity more than anything else.

Why do you feel it is so important which particular bit of land you happen to be born on? I don't get this nationalist stuff. People are people. Country borders are flexible. I've lived in 3 countries. All were fine. It's narrow minded parochial crap

Where those three countries organised in some sort of way? You don't have to be Scottish born to want independence for Scotland (I am not, for example)

Not Scottish but I understand why they want to leave .
I've a very good friend who lives in Glasgow and he's an orange man.
He says if independence happens the unionists will move to Belfast.
Might just be him and his dog though 😂
He's foaming at the mouth about another referendum.
I'm hoping that now Sinn Fein have a majority in NI they will become a united ireland eventually.
Very personal reasons for that opinion.
I don't understand why the Scottish parliament can't make decisions like this.
Seems unfair.
Do you Scott's think you'll get a new vote under this government?
They seem very adamant and are fixed on brexit .
How can the SNP change that ?

@2Rebecca Why don't we just have a New World Order then? Just one big country called Planet Earth?

It's early morning - what are you talking about? The DUP still have more seats (narrowly!) than SF and a larger share of the vote.

I've a very good friend who lives in Glasgow and he's an orange man.
He says if independence happens the unionists will move to Belfast.

Well, there's another good reason to vote for independence.

I understand why you want independence but the SNP have done nothing to convince me with facts and figures that it is economically viable

Some more food for thought (and then no more, I promise )

Take a sec to digest those and then ask yourself this...

What is the main difference between Scotland and these economically viable, similar sized countries?

Scotland (pop 5.3 million)
Denmark (pop 5.7 million)
Finland (pop 5.5 million)
Slovakia (pop 5.4 million)
Norway (pop 5.2 million)
Ireland (pop 4.6 million)
Croatia (pop 4.2 million)
Lithuania (pop 2.9 million)

Answer: Independence

@SidSparrow hopefully they'll take their drums with them hey 😂

Sorry, couldn't resist re SidSparrow's point If all the other colonies can go it alone then so can we.

Why do you feel it is so important which particular bit of land you happen to be born on? I don't get this nationalist stuff. People are people. Country borders are flexible

Hey, in that case, maybe Britain should team up with Cuba for a political union. I mean, sure, politically they are very different, but as long as one of the countries can exert their political influence in no small way over the other, everyone will be fine with it.

Right?

You are missing a huge part of Scottish Nationalism though. Its not about where you are born. It's about where you chose to make your home. Unlike Westminster, since the Brexit referendum Holyrood has repeatedly said that we value the Europeans that make their home here. We want them to stay. Scottish Nationalism is about being the best Scotland we can be, not about being the most insular.

“ It's early morning - what are you talking about? The DUP still have more seats (narrowly!) than SF and a larger share of the vote.

SF and SDLP are both nationalists parties. Between them they have more MPs are a bigger vote share than the DUP.

Also the UUP picked up 11% of the vote share. So the unionist parties have 42% of the vote and the Nationalists 38%

The neutral Alliance Party though picked up nearly 17% of the vote though and one seat. So Nationalist vote 38%, Unionist vote 42% and Neutral vote 17%.

It’s all to play for, but the direction of travel in terms of trends is one way.

@2Rebecca so you’d be happy if Trump just came over and started making rules for the U.K. saying it doesn’t matter what bit of land you’re on, people are people, country borders are flexible, so you can now be a new US state and don’t complain?

The principle of self determination is important for a reason.

I don't disagree with any of that streetwisehercules but I was correcting a poster who stated "now that SF have a majority" which simply isn't true! Might be next time, but it is not today.

I'm Irish living in Scotland, I have also spend a number of years in England.
This may sound obvious to some but to some people in England ,Scotland is the same as England but further north.
Scotland is it's own unique country ,as different to England as Ireland is .So as it's own country with it's own distinctive nature ofcourse many would want independence.
Scotland is not an add on or an inconvenience it's a proud country in it's own right, for me ,perhaps it's an Irish thing I cannot understand why a country wouldn't want to be independent.

“ it's an Irish thing I cannot understand why a country wouldn't want to be independent.”

Indeed. It’s not even an Irish thing though, it’s just a normal thing. Like all the countries in the world.

What kind of mindset is it that doesn’t want the country they live in to be politically independent?

I have been asking for ways that Scotland are treated differently by Westminster to the rest of the UK, why do people get so uptight?

It’s not so much that Scotland gets treated differently as Westminster policies have a different impact in Scotland which isn’t considered, it considered relevant. This trickles down into companies and organisations that are very England centric because that’s where their head quarters are and where power is held.

Scotland as a nation has a very different ethos to the rest of the uk. There’s a strong committed to social good and social activism, for example free prescriptions, university tuition fees instead of large scale infrastructure projects. Our education system is completely different as are our term times etc. Our childcare and protection laws are different, our healthcare system is different, our very way of making and interpreting the law are different.

What that means in practice is, if you work for a uk wide organisation, you’ll likely spend a considerable amount of time explaining that xyz policy or decision won’t work in Scotland because of the legal/social implications. After a while it becomes incredibly frustrating to still be saying xyz won’t work (while you’re colleagues roll their eyes and tut).

By way of example I worked for a uk wide charity who repeatedly organised uk wide schools based competitions for times when Scottish schools were on holiday. When there was basically no uptake from schools (every single year) I was being told my staff needed to get into schools and engage with the staff and get them involved in the competition because it would look bad if Scotland wasn’t represented. The schools were closed. No one seemed to understand this and we went through the same rigmarole every year.

Now that’s one thing and not that important, but if that kind of lack of thought or awareness happens around most of what you do, including decisions made by Westminster you’re going to get pretty worn out banging that drum time after time.

A Westminster example would be immigration where Scotland’s position is diametrically opposed to Westminster - we have a falling birthdate and plenty of room, we need immigration to support population growth but the Westminster decisions re immigration don’t consider that and instead work on the basis of hostile environment.

I don’t necessarily agree that independence is the best way forward for Scotland but I totally understand the impetus.

I think Scotland has more of a problem than a falling birth rate.
It is actually keeping people in Scotland.

I do think though that for all the talk about how different Scotland is to England, Wales and Northern Ireland it still has a very similar problem.

The parliament and a certain section of the middle classes which is the most vocal think they talk for the rest of the people when in fact I think they live in their own bubble and think everyone else agrees with them.