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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To tell XP DS wont be seeing him?

548 replies

Chaosdragon · 15/12/2019 21:29

Background.
XP was abusive. Mostly verbal and emotional, but occasionally physical. He has not seen DS1 for 7 years. DS is now 15. We would disagree about the reasons for this.
He would blame me 100%. I would blame us both.
Ultimately after 2 years in court indirect contact only was ordered which XP has not done until he started sporadically 12 months ago.

He wants to see DS. DS doesn't want to see him. I, his counsellor and the school all believe he is old enough to have his wishes respected. He can articulate the reasons he doesn't want to see his dad, and they are reasonable.

XP disagrees and says he cannot respect DSs wishes until he has spent some time in his company directly and DS articulate directly to him why he doesn't want to see him. If he is old enough to have his wishes respected, he is old enough to explain them directly to XP. If he isn't mature enough for this then he isn't mature enough to make the decision.

We last disagreed over this in September and since then I have heard nothing from him, until today.

I have received a message which says ...

"I intend to be at your house on 24th December. I will have stuff for DS. Arrange for him to be in my company for hour to see if we can sort things out. This isnt an unreasonable ask. If hes as mature as you say then I am confident he can manage it"

He sends me into a complete panic. And I have spent the last 2 hours trying to compose a reply and then redoing it because he makes me feel unreasonable and I end up either saying too much and it becomes and essay or it becomes too short and abrasive.

AIBU to just reply ....

Feel free to drop the presents off. DS will not be available to see you.

Any better suggestions?

OP posts:
Aworldofmyown · 16/12/2019 09:54

*musn't

Anniegetyourgun · 16/12/2019 10:22

Aworldofmyown no he bloody well doesn't! It's not as if his father will actually accept any kind of negative reply, is it? Why give him the chance to manipulate and guilt trip the boy? The court has already looked at this relationship and deemed it unsafe. The OP and her son have nothing to prove. The ex has everything to prove - and he could start by adhering to indirect contact, not insisting he has the right to turn up on Christmas Eve and be given an account of exactly why his own son is afraid to be in his presence. He bloody knows - he's the one who did that to him. So he has no right, none at all, morally, legally or however you want to put it, to demand to be told face to face something he (a) knows and (b) has shown no signs of making amends for. If there were any indication at all of remorse you might have a point. Maybe. (But why risk it not being genuine?)

One hour on Christmas Eve may sound like very little to give to a parent (were he worthy of the title), but it is quite enough to fuck the poor lad up good and proper. Just Say No.

MyMajesty · 16/12/2019 10:22

Aworldofmyown - Indeed you are.

There is absolutely no reason why DS should see Ex if he doesn't want to.

GabriellaMontez · 16/12/2019 10:31

Aworldofmyown do you think all victims should be compelled/obliged to meet their abusers? Or just children?

BlingLoving · 16/12/2019 10:33

I am shocked that there are posters here saying they see your Ex DH's point.

He has not seen his DS in 7 years.
He has initiated indirect contact sporadically, and only in the last year.
He has been completely silent since September.

And yet now this man thinks he gets to dictate face to face contact, on christmas eve? This is so far b beyond what is acceptable as to be laughable. if HE wants to build a relationship with his son, then the way to do it is to attempt to consistently and genuinely initiated indirect contact. Regular emails, postcards, letters or whatever it takes. DS may choose to ignore them but receiving them regularly might actually show him that his dad wants to be involved. His dad swanning in every few months with demands is not in any way suggestive of a man who wants an actual relationship with his son.

Simple message: "Ds does not want to see you and is not obliged to do so. You can drop off presents/ please post presents. You are welcome to continue emailing/writing to him and he will choose to answer if he wishes to".

You also allude that your DS doesn't trust you to keep him safe. which is sad. But I'd say the fact that you're even considering this means that he has a point. You need to be 100% on DS' side here. No matter how much your ex attempts to portray you as the baddie.

Original poster
Chaosdragon · 16/12/2019 10:33

Thanks everyone for you advice.

I haven't spoken to DS about it because obviously me and XP only last debated this in September and I did speak to DS about it then and it didn't go well - understatement of the year! - I have no reason to think he will feel any differently only a few months later. If anything he is now more certain of his view point, as both the school and his counsellor have validated his view.

I'll keep it simple I think and hope I don't get a further response :)

OP posts:
BlingLoving · 16/12/2019 10:34

Oh, and while I don't think DS needs to do anything, if your ex is insisting on hearing it from your Ds directly, ask your DS to send him an email from the specifically set up inbox in which he says very simply, "I do not want to see you. Please leave Mum and I alone". But he shouldn't have to do that.

JamieVardysHavingAParty · 16/12/2019 10:37

XP disagrees and says he cannot respect DSs wishes until he has spent some time in his company directly and DS articulate directly to him why he doesn't want to see him. If he is old enough to have his wishes respected, he is old enough to explain them directly to XP. If he isn't mature enough for this then he isn't mature enough to make the decision.

Translation: he wants the opportunity to aggressively browbeat his son.

Most British adults would feel awkward and rude to tell someone to their face why they didn't want to see them ever again, no matter that person had done, and that is exactly what he's relying on.

It definitely wouldn't mean they weren't justified to feel that way!

NearlyGranny · 16/12/2019 10:37

Aworldofmyown, I guess 'tell him he must be afraid' was a typo, but the child definitely already is afraid and needs no telling!

Original poster
Chaosdragon · 16/12/2019 10:48

Bling you have a point. I promised DS is September that he would never have to see XP if he didn't want to. That whatever his view point was i would support him. That whilst I had not kept him safe in the past I was stronger now and I would do so. Thats what I need to remember.

Its just I spent so long not having any view other than that which XP told me to have that its difficult to work out how much is me having a different view because its a reasonable view or how much is me having a different view because I finally can if that makes sense? I don't have any real life people I can talk to sadly as I've never quite got back on my feet following stuff, and although I have lots of acquaintances I don't have any close friends.

OP posts:
Emeraldshamrock · 16/12/2019 10:48

If he really cared about making amends he wouldn't be forcing the visit, it is Christmas eve.
If he cared he'd leave his gifts with a note and contact number, or do it after Christmas.
He sounds immature he wants DS to say it to his face FFS, he sounds like the 15 yo. There is no way I'd put a 15 year old through that without a professional counsellor involved.
No way OP.

MulticolourTinselOnTheTree · 16/12/2019 10:50

XP disagrees and says he cannot respect DSs wishes until he has spent some time in his company directly and DS articulate directly to him why he doesn't want to see him. If he is old enough to have his wishes respected, he is old enough to explain them directly to XP. If he isn't mature enough for this then he isn't mature enough to make the decision.

Translation: he wants the opportunity to aggressively browbeat his son.

Additional translation, he wants to twist and demolish any argument put forward as to why DS doesn't want to see him so that DS looks to be in the wrong.

Personal, bitter experience of this kind of thing. My ex has never accepted he was in the wrong and twisted everything I said or wrote. He just couldn't get that I had the right to leave him for any reason. Still doesn't get it.

kalinkafoxtrot45 · 16/12/2019 10:57

You are right to protect your son and respect his wish not to see XP. And that’s how to present it: no debate, no argument.

DS does not want to see him and the court have mandated indirect contact only. Turning up at the house is just harassment. Best to arrange to be out if possible as if XP makes a scene banging at the door, that could be very frightening for you both.

Lolapusht · 16/12/2019 11:03

OP, focus on what your son is telling you. He does not want to see his dad. Do NOT let his dad come into your son’s house which should be the one place he should feel safe and secure. You promised him in September that he wouldn’t need to see his dad if he didn’t want to. Please don’t break that promise.

This man does not deserve to be in your son’s life, he hasn’t been a father so far. Have you had counselling to help recover from the treatment you endured? You are not wrong in having a different view to your XP. The courts, your son’s school and his counsellor all share the same view as you. You are not wrong!

Keep your XP away from your son. He probably wouldn’t even want any present your XP gave him, so do not let that man in your house. He is not owed an explanation from your son. If your XP doesn’t believe him then that’s on your XP, not your son. Please do not make your son justify why he doesn’t want to see him. Stay strong!!!

BlingLoving · 16/12/2019 11:07

Also, don't be surprised that he'll be telling all and sundry about how you're keeping DS away from him when all he wants is to give him christmas presents and be with his family during the holidays blah blah blah.

A friend's ex wanted to take the kids on holiday. She wasn't keen as all three children had spent a total of about 8 hours in his company in the previous 6 months (because he never actually turned up). He took her to court. Apparently, judge said, "well, let's see if you can turn up for your court mandated contact of EOW before we start talking about holidays." Makes me laugh because he kept telling her how mean and cruel and controlling she was and the court saw RIGHT THROUGH HIM.

sugarplumtum · 16/12/2019 11:19

Op the problem I have is that your ds isn't old enough to decide contact should stop forever, I know this from experience with myself, I stopped speaking to my own df as a teen.
What I would suggest is for exp to wait until the new year, no way is he to expect a conversation or his ds to try a day or so before Christmas that is extremely unfair and unacceptable.

I totally understand that your ds doesnt feel safe and being made or forced at his ages is going to make him feel worse but can't they go to the cinema twice in the new year and it gives you ds a chance to see if he does want a little contact as he will always be his df, or will you ex keep going on about his emotions and the breakdown in contact?

Original poster
Chaosdragon · 16/12/2019 11:20

Ha sounds like XP. He got in touch after 6 years of absence saying he thought enough time had passed that we would be over our issues with him and he would like to take DS away to Yorkshire for a week for them to reconnect their father / son bond.

I genuinely sometimes think im living in some sort of alternate world because to me he seems out there with his requests but hes so serious and convinced hes the sensible one, I end up wondering if im as mental as he says I am!

OP posts:
Original poster
Chaosdragon · 16/12/2019 11:27

Sugar I don't know what XP would do. I do think he would want validation from DS that DS was unreasonable in not seeing him for this long. The problem is he just keeps chipping away at you (more progressively) until you give in and say what he wants just to make him stop.

OP posts:
Original poster
Chaosdragon · 16/12/2019 11:28

progressively? I mean aggressively!

OP posts:
LadyMacbethWasMisunderstood · 16/12/2019 11:30

Just to clear something up for you - an indirect contact order provides specifically for indirect contact. Unless there is an order forbidding - in clear terms - direct contact (which is quite unusual) then it does not prohibit direct contact. It is just giving legal status to the minimum level of contact. Quite a lot of people. Even some professionals, get this wrong.

Not saying you should allow the direct contact though - just providing clarification on the law (I’m a family lawyer).

partyhatsoff · 16/12/2019 11:31

Do YOU want him at your house on Xmas Eve? I wouldn't and would be telling him so. Can you encourage your DS to speak to him by phone?

Lllot5 · 16/12/2019 11:36

Don’t come round ds doesn’t want to see you because you’re a cunt stick your presents up your arse.

zafferana · 16/12/2019 11:41

It doesn't matter how much time has passed, your ex hasn't changed a bit, has he? He's still aggressive, self righteous, a bully who thinks he can get his own way. There are some great responses on here - use one of them - and don't give an inch. He clearly conditioned you to do as you were told when you were in a relationship with him, probably because you were terrified. You don't have to be terrified any more. Protect your DS and do not insist that he sees his DF. He's 15 and he's afraid of him FGS!

GabriellaMontez · 16/12/2019 11:44

sugarplum is right in that he may not want to stop contact forever. Your ds may, one day want to speak to or meet with his Father.

If he decides to do this you can support him in this.

The pp and your xp are wrong to think that contact should be made at anytime when your ds does not want it.

Relationships don't work like that. Esp when there is a history of abuse and a vulnerable child.

Hepsibar · 16/12/2019 11:44

The tone of this message says everything and it really isnt surprising DS wants no contact.

However XP will have no insight and think it is all down to you.

I do not think he should come to the house at all. Your home is a place of safety. I like Haffdonga's suggestion, but obviously if here is a court order, he is breaking that coming to your home.

There is no easy answer ... I think you should discuss with your son what he would want to do. I think there needs to be someone else there if he does come to the house.