To tell XP DS wont be seeing him?

[Chaosdragon]

Background.
XP was abusive. Mostly verbal and emotional, but occasionally physical. He has not seen DS1 for 7 years. DS is now 15. We would disagree about the reasons for this.
He would blame me 100%. I would blame us both.
Ultimately after 2 years in court indirect contact only was ordered which XP has not done until he started sporadically 12 months ago.

He wants to see DS. DS doesn't want to see him. I, his counsellor and the school all believe he is old enough to have his wishes respected. He can articulate the reasons he doesn't want to see his dad, and they are reasonable.

XP disagrees and says he cannot respect DSs wishes until he has spent some time in his company directly and DS articulate directly to him why he doesn't want to see him. If he is old enough to have his wishes respected, he is old enough to explain them directly to XP. If he isn't mature enough for this then he isn't mature enough to make the decision.

We last disagreed over this in September and since then I have heard nothing from him, until today.

I have received a message which says ...

"I intend to be at your house on 24th December. I will have stuff for DS. Arrange for him to be in my company for hour to see if we can sort things out. This isnt an unreasonable ask. If hes as mature as you say then I am confident he can manage it"

He sends me into a complete panic. And I have spent the last 2 hours trying to compose a reply and then redoing it because he makes me feel unreasonable and I end up either saying too much and it becomes and essay or it becomes too short and abrasive.

AIBU to just reply ....

Feel free to drop the presents off. DS will not be available to see you.

Any better suggestions?

There's a court order for a reason. He has no right to turn up at your house just because he's suddenly decided to. Your ds is only 15 and still needs to be protected from him. Just because he says he doesn't want to see him doesn't obligate him to address his dad in person. Even if he were an adult he is under no obligation to see his dad in person, just like anyone else who doesn't wish to continue any sort of relationship.

If he turns up at the house don't answer the door and call the police if needed. I would make this clear to him that this will happen. I'd also contact my solicitor and if necessary have this information sent to him via solicitor. He's a bully.

Regardless of the court ordering indirect contact, no one has a right to demand access to another person's home if they don't want them there, so you really do need to put your foot down here OP. Your post and every response since is dripping with how much you fear this man, so why put yourself in a position where you have to face him again and he can run rings round you in person? Your son is 15 ie a minor and has a right to feel safe in his own home. He also has a right to feel like his resident parent will protect him from harm and respect his wishes, not have to make himself scarce on Christmas bloody Eve if he wants to avoid the manipulative creep you decided to invite round. Reply and tell him to mail the presents or don't bother

I'd reply:

Do not come to the house. As you know, this is against both ds's wishes and the contact order. Ds does not have to justify himself to you. If you have something for him you can mail it. This is not open for discussion. Continuing to push for unwanted direct contact is harassment which will be reported to the police .

Your Ds is 15 now .

He didn’t even bother with the indirect contact.

I am assuming your Ds witnessed what was going on ? He is 15 . By that age no court will order contact .

My niece left home to live with my abusive exh at 15 ) no rules) . Ss Basically had no interest at that age.

Where were you planning to attend Christmas. We are always out Christmas Eve.

I would also if your Ds feels you weren’t their for him I would support him completely . Stop asking him.

As for mature enough . I went to mediation with my ex I heard his voice and felt myself shrivel up. Don’t put your Ds there.

It’s also worth calling none emergency number . Previously violent ex insisting he comes to your house , you can get a warning put on address

It's been 7 years tell him he is not to come to the house and if he does you will not be answering the door to him

Your son has said no. He’s been very clear. You owe your abusive partner nothing. Please respect your son’s wishes. @DeathStare wrote a good message. I’d be very clear that he is not welcome.

“In line with indirect contact, feel free to drop off what you want to. DS knows you’re planning on coming, and doesn’t want to see you. He is 15 years old and doesn’t need to justify himself to you. Sometimes when we make our beds, we need to lie in them. Just to be clear, showing up at my house on Christmas Eve and trying to insist on seeing DS when he doesn’t want to will be considered harassment”

Talk to your son. Do you think he could write a letter, explaining not to come as he doesnt want to see him? Then ignore the door on Christmas eve.

"No, do not come to my house. DS does not wish to see you. If you come here I will call the police. You can post the gifts and I will pass them on".

Do not negotiate. Your DS owes him nothing.

Your son will 16 soon, nearly an adult, it is not for you to schedule who he sees, father or not. I genuinely mean that in the nicest, most positive way possible. Try not to worry!

Are you blooming kidding? The 16 year old who can do that is one that has not been traumatised by his father’s actions or lack of. You cannot force a victim to face an aggressor just because he is old enough to tell him himself. That child needs protection, not being forced to face a perpetrator. Besides, do you have a clue on how the perpetrator will react or what would he say if the child dares to tell him face to face he doesn’t want contact?

No, that doesn't work for us. Repeat.
You don't need to justify it, you don't need to explain.
Indirect contact is contact via another person or by post, but turning up at the house making demands.
What a twat.

He can drop presents at his Mum’s / Ds Nan’s.
His Mum is aware of Ds’ feelings because of the e mail situation.
OP, do you still have your solicitor?

I do not think you should tell Ds he has to justify himself or spend an hour with his Dad to ‘sort things out’ as you putting that kind of pressure or expectation on him will just undo any trust you have managed to build that you intend to keep him safe.

I would get your solicitor to respond. That his counsellor and school have independently verified that Ds does not want contact and believe that this is best for him. That you do not want him at your house. That, within no the terms of indirect contact he is welcome to leave presents or a message with his Mum and that you will not withhold access to this present or message.

And I would be out all day Christmas Eve, or in with a very confident friend or family member.

OP, your Ex is telling you what is his definition of indirect contact. He’s trying to manipulate you. Don’t listen to him.

Previous poster said the presents are a Trojan horse. Great analogy. If Ex hasn’t given presents for every Christmas and every birthday in the past 7 years, this is spot on. These Presents are a means of manipulation. Your son doesn’t HAVE to accept them. Just don’t address the presents and they lose the power of a means of manipulation.

Some of the suggestions are far too wordy. Many are correct pointing out indirect contact means just that and Ex has no right to see DS in person (direct).

Previous poster suggested have your solicitor reply. If you have the funds for that, I would suggest that. If not, then as suggest previously a message of simply that:-

“There is a court order for indirect contact. Any attempt to breach the court order to force direct contact will be reported to the police, the police have been notified of your threats to come on Xmas eve. Do not contact me again.”

Leave it at that. Don’t reply to anything else. In fact, block his number so he can’t harass you with messages going forward. There’s no reason Ex needs your number or to contact you.

Ring the police, tell them abusive Ex has indirect contact order only because of his abuse and is now out if the blue harassing you by threatening to show up to your house on Xmas eve and that you and DS are frightened. Put the police on notice. They may also give good advice.

Don’t even address the presents. If this is still so emotive for your DS, does he even going to want these presents? Why would your DS want something that would constantly remind him of Ex?

Don’t let this Ex have the power to frighten you or manipulate you. You got away. You don’t have to do anything he says or listen to anything he says. Don’t give him that power. Block him out.

Your DS, for whom the indirect contact court order is meant to protect, needs you to do that for him too.

You can do it.

AdoreTheBeach is right.

I don't think this deserves too much thought. Your ds has made himself clear.

No further explanation necessary.

But I notice in your OP he says "stuff" not 'presents' which we're assuming. Could be anything. Old photos, old toys, who knows.

Keep it factual - “If you wish to vary the court order which states indirect contact only, I suggest you speak to your solicitor about this. I will not breach the current court order by allowing you direct contact with ds. If you turn up at my home, I’ll make use of all legal options, including calling the police, to make sure the court order is adhered to”

He's harassing you and trying to continue the abuse by proxy through your DS. He is determined to breach boundaries. He is an entitled, manipulative, encroaching abuser.

If you and DS gave him that hour and DS explained his reasons or if DS write them down for him somehow, you can be 100% certain that it wouldn't be the end of it. There would be accusations of brainwashing, parental alienation, blah, blah, blah and it would never stop. Your DS should not be put under this pressure; he has made his choice clear. He is under no obligation to explain, justify or prove anything!

This is the situation with my DC. They don't want to see their dad, they are scared. One is now an adult, the other 16, and I will never force them to do anything they don't want to.

As many have said, grown adults would find it horribly difficult spending an hour with an abuser, let alone using that hour to explain why they dont want to see them. Clearly your son fears that his father won't take that message well, and from what you've described of your ex, those fears are justified.

I would keep it short and to the point. 'Ds has made his feelings clear and will not be seeing you on xmas eve. Please do not come to my home, I will not accept a breach of the indirect contact order and will contact the police if you visit.'

What's really important is you let your son know you have done that and will continue to fight his corner. It's understandable that he is wary of things between your ex and you but this is a chance to show him you will protect him. A decent father would be doing all he could through the indirect contact methods agreed to build a positive relationship with his son. Not trying to steamroller or circumvent the process.

I'm glad you have contacted the Child Legal Centre to clarify what indirect contact means.

Absolutely don't take Ex's word for it.

The email situation sounds weird.
You're saying Ex has to have access to an email account that is supposed to be for DS?
Is that another version of 'indirect' that Ex told you about?

Your DS needs you to be on his side, not on Ex's.

15 is more than old enough for your son to make that decision on his own, so I would just do whatever your son wants

Tell him if he comes to your house you’ll be calling the police

This. And please do.

He's still bullying you.

I would have someone else (preferable a male friend/family member) in the house on the 24th when he is dropping the gifts.
If he has been abusive in the past, I would assume he is still abusive and to be very careful around him.

What's the betting there are no presents. He's looking for a way to control your ds and, by extension, you. He's using Christmas as an excuse to make you both feel guilty and wheedle his way back in. I had this with my ds till I put a stop to it.

As others have said, don't fall for his bullshit. If he turns up phone the police and don't answer the door. Good luck

Can you tell him you will meet in a coffee shop, somewhere very public. With you sitting elsewhere with a friend?
I kind of do think he needs to do this and you need to tell him he must be afraid to be totally honest and brutal with his dad.

I like the answer from @Jeezoh