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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To tell XP DS wont be seeing him?

548 replies

Chaosdragon · 15/12/2019 21:29

Background.
XP was abusive. Mostly verbal and emotional, but occasionally physical. He has not seen DS1 for 7 years. DS is now 15. We would disagree about the reasons for this.
He would blame me 100%. I would blame us both.
Ultimately after 2 years in court indirect contact only was ordered which XP has not done until he started sporadically 12 months ago.

He wants to see DS. DS doesn't want to see him. I, his counsellor and the school all believe he is old enough to have his wishes respected. He can articulate the reasons he doesn't want to see his dad, and they are reasonable.

XP disagrees and says he cannot respect DSs wishes until he has spent some time in his company directly and DS articulate directly to him why he doesn't want to see him. If he is old enough to have his wishes respected, he is old enough to explain them directly to XP. If he isn't mature enough for this then he isn't mature enough to make the decision.

We last disagreed over this in September and since then I have heard nothing from him, until today.

I have received a message which says ...

"I intend to be at your house on 24th December. I will have stuff for DS. Arrange for him to be in my company for hour to see if we can sort things out. This isnt an unreasonable ask. If hes as mature as you say then I am confident he can manage it"

He sends me into a complete panic. And I have spent the last 2 hours trying to compose a reply and then redoing it because he makes me feel unreasonable and I end up either saying too much and it becomes and essay or it becomes too short and abrasive.

AIBU to just reply ....

Feel free to drop the presents off. DS will not be available to see you.

Any better suggestions?

OP posts:
Pretenditsaplan · 15/12/2019 23:07

Ds has no wish for direct contact. The courts have upheld that decision. If you show up to my house to force direct contact after youve been denied i will be ringing the police. You are no welcome and i will see any attempt to force ds to see you over christmas period and indeed beyond as harrasment. I WILL apply for a non molestation order. This is your warning before i start police proceedings. ...... then stop responding. And follow through.

Original poster
Chaosdragon · 15/12/2019 23:08

I don't particularly want him to come to the house, but I have to facilitate indirect contact so I assume I have to accept the gifts which is why I was going to say he can drop them off but not see DS.

Can I tell him not to come to the house?

God he twists me in knots.

OP posts:
Techway · 15/12/2019 23:15

How long ago was the Cafcass report? It seems that they backed your son and I would just reiterate their recommendations.

However less words and no justification is best as anything will be used against you and there is no point trying to negotiate with a bully.

I am so glad courts are supporting your son. When I separated I felt forced to make my DC see their dad (for fear of being accused of parental alienation). They said to me "how come you are allowed to separate from Dad because he is angry and aggressive and we are not".

Uncompromisingwoman · 15/12/2019 23:15

OP, Why don't you ask the question in Legal matters? Someone there may be able to be clear about the boundaries of indirect contact? And take your time before replying to him. Don't let him pressurise you.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/legal_matters

Mjlp · 15/12/2019 23:16

He sounds very manipulative. I wouldn't let him come to your house!
Just reiterate he only has indirect contact, so he can post the stuff. And if he turns up, call the police. It would be harassment if you'd told him not to.

Queenoftheashes · 15/12/2019 23:17

Just tell him he can drop the presents and DS is aware but may decide not to be in as a pp said. He can’t make ds talk to him but you’ve facilitated his attempt.

QueenOfOversharing · 15/12/2019 23:18

If he only has indirect contact, you do not have to facilitate anything - it should always be through a safe intermediary (ie his parents or whoever), not YOU. You were the victim of his abuse. You are no doubt the target of this harassment, not your DS, however much your ExP protests - my DS had contact at contact centre with my ExP & that was only ever used as an opportunity to try to continue his contact with me.

You said yourself DS does not feel safe, given the history & needs you to keep him safe. If this is stressing you out, imagine what a 15 yo feels like! You must stand up to your ExP in insisting he doesn't "pop round".

I can't see how you have an indirect contact order & not understand what is in place to keep your child safe.

HaileySherman · 15/12/2019 23:18

I think him making this demand on Christmas Eve ofvall days shows he's likely the same abusive, bullying bastard he always was. Why stress and potentially ruin Christmas? He has 363 days that are NOT Christmas or Christmas eve to do this.1

Zofloramummy · 15/12/2019 23:19

Can’t he drop them off at a relatives instead? Your home is your safe space, yes you are absolutely within your rights not to allow him to visit you there. Meet elsewhere or more preferably through a third party.

He is trying to dictate and control the situation and it’s obviously distressing for you. He has no right to force your ds to explain to him face to face why he doesn’t want contact. Your ex of course only cares about his ‘rights’ and feelings. He cannot connect the dots that his past behaviours mean that his son doesn’t want anything to do with him. It’s far easier to blame you.

Don’t let him into your space.

Mjlp · 15/12/2019 23:22

'Indirect contact' means he can contact your son by post or telephone. Your son doesn't have to write back/answer the phone. It's what my eldest children have with their father - court ordered. Your ex is trying to manipulate you both. Do not let him come to your house!

CalleighDoodle · 15/12/2019 23:24

I thought your original reply suggestion was great. Not wordy. Nothing to nitpick.

PityParty4one · 15/12/2019 23:29

He can send gifts via parcel force you can accept them from the driver.

As for him coming to the house the answer is no.
You will not force DS to do anything he is uncomfortable with and seeing you makes him uncomfortable.
At 15 DS can and has chosen to be estranged from you.
Respect his choice. Stop bullying him.

Winterdaysarehere · 15/12/2019 23:29

At 15 no judge would force any sort of order..my ds went nc with exh at 12 despite court order.
No repercussion at all.
Just don't answer the door. He gets abusive then the police will remove him.

NearlyGranny · 15/12/2019 23:34

He's harassing you and trying to continue the abuse by proxy through your DS. He is determined to breach boundaries. He is an entitled, manipulative, encroaching abuser.

If you and DS gave him that hour and DS explained his reasons or if DS write them down for him somehow, you can be 100% certain that it wouldn't be the end of it. There would be accusations of brainwashing, parental alienation, blah, blah, blah and it would never stop. Your DS should not be put under this pressure; he has made his choice clear. He is under no obligation to explain, justify or prove anything!

Indirect contact means buying a present and leaving it somewhere else, not hanging around your door like the big bad wolf while you and DS shiver with fear inside!

Is there an intermediary of some kind living further away who can hold a parcel for you until it's convenient for you to collect? Would school take it in?

You know what? I predict that if he cannot come to your home and browbeat DS, there will be no present. The present is nothing more than a Trojan horse.

cakeandchampagne · 15/12/2019 23:40

The court ordered “indirect contact only”.
Having the xp in your home with your son is a violation of that.

I would let the police know about this potential problem.

Painedpleasure · 15/12/2019 23:40

Stick to the court order. Be out on that day, respond telling him you and your son wish to stick to the court order. If he wants to take the matter back to court that is on him. You're doing your bit. Tell him to send letters and gifts by royal mail etc.

Cherrysoup · 15/12/2019 23:42

He may not come to your house or see your son. That is the point of indirect contact. Is he a bit thick, your ex? Tell him not to come or you will call the cops, you absolutely can if he is causing a fuss.

Helpfullilly · 15/12/2019 23:51

I wouldn't let this abusive man anywhere near your DS, especially if a court have denied him all but indirect contact and DS has said he does not want to see him or contact him.

The XP is not owed an explanation (in person or indirectly). It probably won't make him go away, either. He's not a normal person, he's an abuser and he will keep pushing to try to get his way. The child's welfare needs to be put first and he could be very distressed about confronting his abusive father or having contact with him.

In addition, you should not be being pressured or feel you owe it to someone who has been violent towards you and abused you emotionally to have them anywhere near YOU.

If I were your DS I'd be furious if you allowed it and I think it could be really harmful.

I suggested telling XP that if he has no right to invite himself in this manner. DS does not wish to see him and nor do you. If he comes anywhere near you, DS or the house then you will call the police to have him removed. The court has ordered in direct contact only and that is all he is allowed, and it doesn't mean DS will be interested (understandably so if XP is abusive and ignored him for seven years).

Do call the police if he shows and say your abusive XP has shown up after being told to stay away by you. Sometimes this sort of thing is the only way to deal with a bully and manipulator of this sort.

You absolutely can call the police in this situation (have done in similar situations and the police attended). It's not a civil matter if he attends your house in this manner, it is harassment from an abusive former partner and a continuation of the abuse.

Andysbestadventure · 15/12/2019 23:55

Yes you can tell him not to come to the house, of course you bloody can! And NO you don't have to accept the gifts. If he wants to send them he can post them!

I.e. indirect!

Helpfullilly · 15/12/2019 23:56

If you are still unsure what to do you can always talk to Women's Aid, who could also give you a bit of perspective on the sort of man you are dealing with and remind you this is not a normal or safe person for either of you.

Helpfullilly · 16/12/2019 00:21

I cannot understand how anyone can think it a good or reasonable idea to encourage or force a victim of child abuse to explain to their abuser why they no longer what a relationship with them.

Yes, make the 15 year old stand in front of the violent man who he may have witnessed attacking his mother or personally attacked him (against the advice of the child's counsellor) and say why he no longer wants a relationship... can you not imagine how painful and frightening that might be for him? You think abusive dad would really accept his reasoning and not argue back or continue to force his presence on the child victim? Even writing a letter, why should he be forced to write that his father hurt him and his mother so he no longer wants contact? Or forced to accept presents from someone who frightens him because the abusive father thinks it reasonable? The child victim should not be being forced to do anything by the abusive adult in service of their own selfish desires. What possible benefit of any contact is there to the son? None, it's all about the father. The other adults should be protecting the child.

The XP is just trying to control everything, it's not about his son's needs or wants at all. This boy needs and deserves protecting. If it were a none abusive father it might be different, but this is someone who has done mother and child great harm.

Tellem87 · 16/12/2019 00:34

In the nicest way possible, how you feel isn't too important. Does your son want to spend an hour with him? If the answer is no, then that is your answer to him! Support your son, as you have been, and pay no attention or concern to demands or requests.

Your son will 16 soon, nearly an adult, it is not for you to schedule who he sees, father or not. I genuinely mean that in the nicest, most positive way possible. Try not to worry!

maddening · 16/12/2019 01:02

To Ex, I am happy to facilitate indirect contact, however I will not accept your attendance at my home in any form due to your abusive history, nor am I obliged to.

You may send any correspondence via the post and I will encourage ds to provide a reply via post as per the court order.

Any attempt to visit my address will be seen as a hostile act and will be dealt with accordingly due to your previous behaviour.

DeathStare · 16/12/2019 01:03

"I have asked DS if he wishes to see you. DS says no. I cannot force him. In any case I do not wish you to come to my house, and if DS does want to see you contact arrangements will need to be made away from my house. If you come to my house without my consent I shall count this as harassment and shall take appropriate legal action. Please do not contact me about this again"

FelixFelicis6 · 16/12/2019 01:09

You DO NOT have to answer the door to him. Ask him to leave them on the doorstop at most. But do not let him get in the door if he has history of being manipulative/bully/violent - absolute no. And your son does not have to see him or explain himself. Keep strong for him and keep protecting him.