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AIBU?

To think that Turkeys Voted for Christmas?

847 replies

StormzysHat · 15/12/2019 13:45

NC. This could appear goady but honestly it's a genuine confusion to me.

According to what we are led to believe by the media / some people on MN, "northerners" (as a generic group) voted for Conservatives because they are disadvantaged and fed up with the north south divide among other reasons.

How come disadvantaged Londoners voted Labour? I work in support sector and many people in my care will be in shelters this Christmas, and others rely on food banks. They were saddened and disheartened by Labour's loss and felt the Conservatives in no way represent them. This is on top of the Tory devised hostile environment and Windrush scandal making peoples' lives hell.

I understand that people are / have been pissed off and wanted to have their voices heard. But WHY would the very communities ravaged by the Tories in the 80's vote for them?

Why is it that Corbyn who lives in a very modest way, in Upper Holloway and who went to grammar school is seen as less acceptable than an old Etonian millionaire proven liar? How can Boris Jonson be seen as someone who can help the north south divide or to champion the working class FFS??

I completely accept Corbyn's leadership has been poor and don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan. BUT, given the alternative, I can't understand HOW working class people could vote for Johnson?

AIBU to think the turkeys just voted for Christmas?

OP posts:

Am I being unreasonable?

935 votes. Final results.

POLL
You are being unreasonable
46%
You are NOT being unreasonable
54%
koshkat · 17/12/2019 17:05

That sounds very familiar! Xmas Grin

derxa · 17/12/2019 17:17

unherd.com/2019/12/why-corbynistas-can-never-admit-theyre-wrong/

Corbynism has become a cult and eventually people will realise this.

ethelfleda · 17/12/2019 17:32

fluffygrey I am familiar with the very culture you mention. It is everywhere where I live, actually. To pretend it doesn’t exist is disingenuous.

Trewser · 17/12/2019 17:48

I am sure it exists. But in pockets rather than everyone. A bit like support for Corbyn

ethelfleda · 17/12/2019 17:54

I would imagine there are more than you think there are.
There are many things that led to the outcome of this election... but as soon as Farage announced he wasn’t going to be fielding candidates in every constituency it was a forgone conclusion that the Tory party would walk it. They even targeted the so-called ‘Workington man’ - the description of which was quite offensive in my opinion! ‘White, middle aged, likes rugby union and didn’t go to University’ - I mean take from that what you will...

Conservatives have moved towards the right as much as labour have to the left in my opinion. They’ve just been far more subtle about it. Well played, really.

Trewser · 17/12/2019 17:57

So why didnt all these farage supporting right wingers vote Labour? Brexit? In which case why did Labour have such a nonsensical Brexit "plan"?

ethelfleda · 17/12/2019 18:02

Because they wanted to ‘get Brexit Done’
Pretty much the only message that conservatives kept hammering in to people during their election campaign! And far right wingers are hardly going to vote Labour, are they??

Look at the votes during the European election, for example. The Brexit Party gained over 500,000 votes compared with Conservative’s 135,000...
The Brexit party = Farage
Farage = bigot

ethelfleda · 17/12/2019 18:02

Sorry - those votes were in West Midlands

TatianaLarina · 17/12/2019 18:02

That doesn’t make them posh.

No it doesn’t, but it makes them elite and many people conflate that with posh. Wilson had a slight northern accent but Heath spoke quite a posh version of RP.

Trewser · 17/12/2019 18:05

Well Labour were idiotic not to realise they wanted Brexit. I suppose it would have been hard for Corbyn to go to kitchen suppers in Islington and say he was campaigning for Brexit!

MrsWobble3 · 17/12/2019 18:42

That’s one of the oddities for me. Boris is probably instinctively a remainer but politically a leaver and Corbyn the other way round. Boris is a better dissembler though. And the public wants to leave so he got the mood right too.

mindproject · 17/12/2019 19:04

The popularity of Boris is no mystery. Boris doesn't seem to like women very much. About half the country finds this relatable.

ethelfleda · 17/12/2019 19:09

Well Labour were idiotic not to realise they wanted Brexit

Perhaps. But then if they’d gone after the leave voters, that would be the main 2 parties both vying for 52% of the population.

I think there are a myriad of reasons the election went the way it did. And I think they all need to be considered and talked about. I don’t think we can lay 100% of the blame anywhere, in my opinion.

And one of those many reasons is the Tories mopping up the typical ‘Workington man’ voter. Because if there is one thing that voter hates more than posh Tories, it’s immigrants!

ethelfleda · 17/12/2019 19:11

We also need to admit that it is a very very real possibility that our politics, as well as our culture, has shifted to the right - just as the USA’s has.
I don’t think Labour’s policies were that far left, in the grand scheme of things.

singledadstu · 17/12/2019 19:13

Simple living Corbyn and his personal millions Hmm. Under the roof of his wife’s family fortune, and somehow he’s not the same as other millionaires in parliament ? He’s not Labour. He’s not working class . Him and his front bench with their odd shoes thrown in , have destroyed a useful viable alternative party . Destroyed the working class’s chances of voting for a different party than conservatives. He ought to hang his head in Shame for it

ethelfleda · 17/12/2019 19:15

And the public wants to leave so he got the mood right too

This is another phrase I keep hearing - many politicians keep saying it too. It is incorrect. Just over half of the public wants to leave. Not all of the public.
If we are going to keep bleating on about respecting the outcome of the referendum, then can we please at least acknowledge that nearly half of the public didn’t want Brexit.

user764329056 · 17/12/2019 19:21

Mindproject, you make a very good point

thefluffysideofgrey · 17/12/2019 19:46

@singledadstu

The Labour Party has always been an alliance between academia and the working class.

thefluffysideofgrey · 17/12/2019 19:56

@ethelfleda

I agree. We're following the USA to the right.

It's horrible. Nobody wants to admit it or talk about it. I think it's been happening for years. With the constant drip of anti-EU, anti-immigrant propaganda, the war on (Muslim) terror, an influx of Eastern European's to the construction industry, the horror grew and grew- nurtured by Murdoch and Farage.

What Farage did was offer a semi-respectable political home to this- to national front, combat 18, bnp, edl, north east casuals, football lads (now the democratic football lads I believe- a nod to the Brexit ref).

Straight out of 30's Germany.

thefluffysideofgrey · 17/12/2019 20:26

According to the independent, it was middle aged labour voters that they lost:


www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/election-results-working-class-age-tories-labour-boris-johnson-yougov-a9249936.html

The young lads are off the hook- it's their resentful Mams and Dads what done it

singledadstu · 17/12/2019 20:42

Fluffysideofgrey id like to agree but the proof is in the pudding . Labour stopped assisted places scheme in Blair years , thus preventing the higher achieving poorer children from attending private schools and Corbyn for some insane reason was hell bent on taking private schools into government ownership. Government should concentrate on raising our national schools standards rather than pulling down the other’s

The80sweregreat · 17/12/2019 20:48

I voted for labour but a few of the policies were completely out of touch.
Rip up the grey book and start again !
If they find a decent leader that should be a priority. Leave private schools alone for starters. At least those children are leaving money for the rest that go to state schools( which is a huge percentage)
They need a few lessons in common sense!

Justanotherlurker · 17/12/2019 21:38

And one of those many reasons is the Tories mopping up the typical ‘Workington man’ voter. Because if there is one thing that voter hates more than posh Tories, it’s immigrants!

Still alluding to racism is why Labour will be left behind, wanting limits on immigration is not racist, and until the left can grow up and have this conversation without alluding to racism is why the north abandoned them.

It's a meme that that the most vocal left threaten to move away to countries with a points based immigration system, it is that kind of hypocrisy and double think that is lost on a lot of the metropolitan labour supporters.

The holy grail of the nordic countries are closing their borders and cutting back on benefits, those same countries also have strict restrictions on immigrants access to either in work benefits or benefits at all, if we was to implement some of those, the british left would scream we are turning into some nazi germany. This is where the debate is at. its the same as the NHS, there is no nuance of thinking around the grey areas, its simple black and white thinking.

The left are just as guilty in bringing the american style binary thinking into the our political discourse.

One reason why Labour failed was predicted by Orwell, it's the paternalistic style socialism, 'you' know whats best and support them just as long as they don't express their views and if they vote differently you drop them like a hot sack of shit.

It's been evident since brown, the Ref was another shot across the bow and they was hoodwinked by Corbyn being new and having an anti eu globalist voting record came on board in 2017.

2 years later, and still alluding to it being racist is why it is going to be a long 4 years for you.

CharlottesPleb · 17/12/2019 21:59

You're wasting your breath to be honest.

Socialist Pony Club is never going to understand the concerns or mindset of the people in heartlands that were the Labour core vote for 100 years, and they will never, ever accept responsibility for anything because the MO of the posh socialist is injury on behalf of other people, identity politics and gaudy expressions of virtue that involve no personal sacrifice (only the sacrifices of other people). There is no room in that head space for holding yourself accountable.

ethelfleda · 17/12/2019 22:24

2 years later, and still alluding to it being racist is why it is going to be a long 4 years for you

You’ve missed my sentiments entirely.
If anything, you’re misunderstanding my points of view rather than the other way around. I’m not saying all Tory voters or leave voters a racist. I’m not even saying all people who want controlled immigration are racist. But there are a group of people who DO want Brexit because they’re racist. Some of these people do actually exist - because I’ve met loads of them. And they were able to vote for BJ instead of Farage.
And I said that there are many many reasons why the election ended the way it did and you can’t just discredit all of them. There will be a faction of people who voted they way they did because they don’t want more immigrants. And neither of us know for sure how many of those people actually exist. You just can’t ignore that fact, any more than we can ignore the fact that left wingers calling all Tory supporters racist didn’t exactly help things either.

Very very complex subject and outcome and you cannot blame just one thing for the way this has all turned out.

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