To think that Turkeys Voted for Christmas?

[StormzysHat]

NC. This could appear goady but honestly it's a genuine confusion to me.

According to what we are led to believe by the media / some people on MN, "northerners" (as a generic group) voted for Conservatives because they are disadvantaged and fed up with the north south divide among other reasons.

How come disadvantaged Londoners voted Labour? I work in support sector and many people in my care will be in shelters this Christmas, and others rely on food banks. They were saddened and disheartened by Labour's loss and felt the Conservatives in no way represent them. This is on top of the Tory devised hostile environment and Windrush scandal making peoples' lives hell.

I understand that people are / have been pissed off and wanted to have their voices heard. But WHY would the very communities ravaged by the Tories in the 80's vote for them?

Why is it that Corbyn who lives in a very modest way, in Upper Holloway and who went to grammar school is seen as less acceptable than an old Etonian millionaire proven liar? How can Boris Jonson be seen as someone who can help the north south divide or to champion the working class FFS??

I completely accept Corbyn's leadership has been poor and don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan. BUT, given the alternative, I can't understand HOW working class people could vote for Johnson?

AIBU to think the turkeys just voted for Christmas?

[noodlenosefraggle]

To be fair, the PLP tried to get rid of Corbyn. It was the membership, infiltrated by Momentum who kept him there. If you can't get rid of the leader, you have to just go with it and try and get elected despite him. Our Labour candidate (who lost) was basically telling people to vote Labour despite him and he'd be gone before the next election. They had a mountain to climb because of him.

[PencilsInSpace]

Those tweets are awful but Wes Streeting has form himself for the momentum-style intolerance that has played such a big part in Labour's failure.

Wes Streeting and Angela Rayner were involved in the secret facebook group Labour Against Transphobia that collected screenshots of wrongthink by party members (and by quite a few other women who weren't even members) with a view to getting them kicked out.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/784edb8a-02e1-11e8-9de1-e6776d524215?shareToken=9b0b7e2016e9f0deea63ad31e31040c7

[ethelfleda]

Well, those tweets are beyond the pale.

However, from your post I assumed they were actually affiliated with the Labour Party in some way. There will be extremists in every voting camp. Horrible, but true.

[derxa]

ethel I presume far left people. They were upset that Laura Pidcock lost her seat.

[ethelfleda]

Derxa who are those people who were actually tweeting about killing someone??

[derxa]

twitter.com/wesstreeting/status/1206852196236705792
This is Jeremy's kinder gentler politics.

[thetoddleratemyhomework]

@StormzysHat

Thank you for being so gracious in the face of a bit of nastiness and for having engaged with those of us who have voiced our opinions on a subject that is very painful to you.

I agree with much of what you have said and admire you for saying it. I would love to see a central left Labour Party back in the mix and really challenging the Tories. I hope that in the next election more people will feel like they are voting for a good option, rather than avoiding a worse option (or getting it!!).

[Beeziekn33ze]

I understand why people voted against Corbyn.
I don’t understand why people voted for a proven liar and egocentric to be PM.
Like many others I voted for the person, not the party. My decent, responsive, hardworking MP of many years was defeated.
I’ll just sit back now and watch Boris fail to keep his election promises.

[Everanewbie]

OP I disagree with your assertion that the northern working class turning away from Labour was turkeys voting for Christmas. The left like to paint the conservatives as a child catcher type pantomime villain that hates the poor and want to kill them. It's simply not true and everyone apart from tribal loyalists see through these very simplistic characterizations. To me, and a lot of people, the Tories are the party of rewarding hard work, and supporting those in need, but doing so knowing that tax payer support should only go to those in genuine need.

Labour just didn't speak to hard working aspirational voters. Their message focused on the plight of gig economy worker and benefit claimants. Not that they're not worthy of attention. They seemed to see the successful people in Britain as a cash cow to fund their socialist experiment.

In addition, JC was perceived by many as being anti Britain. I'm not sure that is entirely true, but to many there was a clear pattern. He didn't do much to contest that assertion. I thought I was listening to a parody of Corbyn when I heard his comments on the Salisbury incident.

Sorry OP, the Turkeys rejected pie in the sky economics and the politics of envy. The Turkeys rejected half assed brexit positions and a second Indy ref. They rejected a man who seemed to stick up for everyone except Britain and her allies.

The turkeys have spoken OP, maybe the labour party should listen to them if they want to have any kind of a chance in 2024.

[Dapplegrey]

The Momentum people who come on as pundits on many mainstream politics show are usually public school twenty somethings and Oxbridge. Please explain this phenomenon.

Indeed derxa. Alastair Campbell calls them ‘posh boy revolutionaries’ and I know quite a few of my friends’ children who march under this banner. They couldn’t believe they lost the election!

[safariboot]

Bernard Matthews said he wasn't going to slaughter the turkeys, so the turkeys voted for him. I'm surprised they believed Bernard Matthews but there you go.

[StormzysHat]

I agree with the middle part of your post Toddler about how Labour missed a golden opportunity to sell a rational vision of remaining and how to make the EU work better for all of us.

Anyway, I just wanted to say, as the person who started this thread, I have genuinely learnt a lot from this discussion. Ignoring those slinging insults on both sides, I have learned about the reasons that previous Labour voters may have voted Tory this time, and about how those in the 'red wall' type constituencies could have possibly voted Tory.

I've been honest- my gut response on Friday last week was anger and to think "what the fuck is wrong with people / don't they care?" Etc. But I tried to reach out of my bubble to ask why. (Yes I know the original title was unhelpful. Forgive me for that). Now that I've read these responses (and have also been reading various right wing articles and other sources) I do feel I understand more about how Corbyn is viewed outside of working class London communities and also how their manifesto landed.

I still ideologically support the centre left and I do not trust the Tories, and I'm passionate that a decent Labour government would be the best outcome for 'ordinary' people in this country. But what I'm saying is I can see how Labour's considerable failings could be seen as worse than the Conservatives' failings on balance by some people, and I can see how they lost the election, iyswim. I can see that Corbyn just didn't resonate as representing northern voters and the reasons why. I can also appreciate the importance of patriotism to some people, particularly in English towns not benefitting from being part of a larger city (there was an interesting bit about this on Newsnight last night btw). Even though patriotism isn't as much of a big priority in London (in general) I can see that there is nothing wrong with it as long as people are still able to critique our country's faults (and of course ignoring the minority of racists). There are many things we can be proud of about our nation too and the leaders should promote those. Eg I always remember the London Olympics in 2012 and the amazing feeling of patriotism that seemed to sweep the nation (not sure if that was the perception outside of London but it seemed to be). I feel sad that so much has changed only a few years on and we are not in such a good place. Anyway I can see that Corbyn seems not to champion England / Britain in this way.

I am still passionate that working classes in London including POC should have more representation in government, but I don't feel this has to be a war between two sides within Labour (eg the London working class vs white northern working class). The only 'side' of Labour I want to see gone is Momentum and their nastiness. I'm hoping beyond hope that many Labour members will be like me- I was excited and enthused by Corbyn at first back in 2015 but felt he should have gone before this election. So perhaps Labour members won't just blindly vote for his mini-me successor RLB- fingers crossed anyway.

I know Tony Blair is not popular and I was against Iraq and furious with him. However, today I think he's made a very accurate assessment of what's happened.

I am hopeful the party will conduct a proper (and quick) investigation into what went wrong and that the candidates actually admit the full range of reasons they lost, including Corbyn himself, the wish list manifesto, as well as anti-semitism and poor handling of Brexit. If they can't do this it will be a sign they are not the right leader. At the moment I'm still enthused by Lisa Nandy's considered approach, so let's wait and see.

Anyway I'm going to depart this thread now and in the spirit of goodwill I hope we somehow all get a piece of what we want.

[thetoddleratemyhomework]

@thefluffysideofgrey

Personally, I think that they should be in favour of responsible progressive economics. That probably means taxing people a bit more but then using the money to deliver more. It does not mean expropriating assets, whether from companies, private schools or anyone else - this is a slippery slope.

I personally think that the left opposed a sensible progressive policy in the form of TM's social care proposal. It is far more progressive to expect those with more assets to fund a greater portion of their care needs (ie effectively, to let their children inherit a bit less) than to put up income tax for everyone, including the poorest paid (who will never inherit), to do so. I would have argued for a decent cap on it, so the state picks up the bill after a set amount of money. Instead, labour and the Lib Dems labelled the policy a dementia tax and it has been shelved.

I think that the Labour Party should be a voice for curbing the worst excesses of capitalism and for responsible regulation. They should be pressing the tories on leasehold reform for example. Why are leasehold houses not banned already?

They should be opposing the bedroom tax BUT recognising that in some cases people might be incentivised to move to smaller properties if they no longer need the space (NOT punished if they don't) and thinking about what that might look like.

On academies, I don't know enough about them. The JCB one seems to offer something to kids that have been ill served in the more mainstream schools. There are some truly outstanding academies and I can see a case for achieving economies of scale and efficiencies in managing joint services between schools. I'm not sure local authorities really have the capacity or funds to innovate, so I can see that introducing academies could, if well implemented and if overseen appropriately, be a good addition to the state education system. Are they currently a good addition? Where they are not, if that because the policy of having academies at all is not for for purpose, or because private companies are taking the mickey, or because more oversight is needed? I'd like to see labour opposing things more thoughtfully.

[minesagin37]

I suspect as many working class Southerners voted Tory as Northerners op. I'm a Northern Labour voted. My Labour mp was elected

[ethelfleda]

Thetoddler I also agree with your post.

[Trewser]

Personally i would like the Labour Party to be in favour of higher taxation ACROSS THE BOARD

[thefluffysideofgrey]

What would people like the Labour Party to actually stand for?

There's lots here about what they shouldn't do, but not what they should.

Should they be in favour or against academies for example?

I suspect that a lot of votes for the Tories were nothing of the sort- they were votes against Corbyn and immigrants. People voted for patriotism.

[thetoddleratemyhomework]

@MrHodgeymaheg

Did people cite austerity? I thought that the analysis is in marginals was very heavily about Brexit and dislike for Corbyn?

I agree perverse to vote on austerity for tories, but I guess it is not that crazy for working people to think that Labour's policies didn't stack up and would make the country poorer and then to fear for their future job security and opportunities. Even the IFRS suggested that labour's policies on poverty were nowhere near doing what they said they would do - in that context, funding a massive giveaway to the wealthier WASPI women with borrowing looks ridiculous and like bribery.

For me, neither party seemed to be offering great policies, but I know for a fact from my work that many companies preferred a Tory Brexit to more uncertainty about Brexit and the policies of the Labour manifesto.

So you could say that it was a choice for people as to how the country would get poorer. My comments are not to pretend that the tories are a great choice, but to explain why I don't think labour offered a good choice.

[derxa]

The Momentum people who come on as pundits on many mainstream politics show are usually public school twenty somethings and Oxbridge. Please explain this phenomenon.

[defaultusername]

I know that.

It's when 50% of the population jumps up and down saying "don't call us thick" while acting thick that brings this home to me. And others.

[MarySidney]

yes indeed, 50% of the population have below average intelligence.

Er, yes. That's what average means.

[MrHodgeymaheg]

Unfortunately Brexit influenced the vote. I do think it's absolutely nuts that people voted for Conservatives citing austerity as a reason. Do they not know who has been running the country for the last 10 years 😂

I voted Labour, but they should never agreed to an election they would never win, not until Brexit had been done anyway. I didn't mind Corbyn, but he wasn't popular enough to win and he should have left ages ago. We need a centrist party desperately now.

Despite the majority, I still say never say never to another election before the 5 years is up, or at least some civil unrest if nothing changes for the better. I cling on to the fact that as per the previous few years, anything can happen.

On a positive note, at least the Conservatives will totally own this Brexit shitstorm and can't blame anyone else now.