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To ask about the fundamental Tory belief?

184 replies

Beadyohfeedme · 13/12/2019 17:40

So I've argued with quite a few people today about this issue, not on MN but in RL and on other forums. Most tories I know seem to share this belief that we are all responsible for our own fortune, or lack of it.
So that's the underlying reason that they are against higher taxes ('I've worked hard so why should I pay for those who haven't.')

So how does one do this? Are you honestly saying that everyone can become successful?

OP posts:

Marleyisme · 13/12/2019 17:48

I dont know anyone who votes tory who thinks that.

Most of my fellow directors and the business owners all voted Tory. Because they believed it was best for the company l and therefore their employees. The directors who have a lot of personal do so because they happened to join the company and invested when it was new. They are fully aware that they worked hard, but that there was also some luck and risk taking involved.


scaryteacher · 13/12/2019 18:04

I think I can decide how to spend my money better than the gov't, ergo, I don't want higher taxes. I think a lot of gov't spending is unnecessary and could be slashed (why don't we put MPs in something like a military officer's mess in London, and save paying housing allowance and all the related costs?). Projects go way over budget, so why isn't this reined in? Until gratuitous and wasteful spending is sorted, I am reluctant to pay the gov't more in tax.


churchandstate · 13/12/2019 18:08

It’s individualism, but only when they’re doing alright.


churchandstate · 13/12/2019 18:09

why don't we put MPs in something like a military officer's mess in London, and save paying housing allowance and all the related costs?)

Because most MPs are adults with families, not students.


DippyAvocado · 13/12/2019 18:10

I think I can decide how to spend my money better than the gov't

But presumably you would choose to spend most of your money on things for your own benefit rather than things which benefit wider society, the sick, disabled etc?


TulipsTulipsTulips · 13/12/2019 18:13

Sorry OP but this type of broad generalisation is unhelpful and unrepresentative. Lots of tories will share different views on this issue and there will be a sliding scale of opinions.


BubblesBuddy · 13/12/2019 18:13

Projects go way over budget because the complexity is simplified to get agreement to
It in the first place. HS2, Crossrail and NHS IT schemes are just a few examples. It’s very hard to price these schemes accurately. Perhaps they should be mothballed if they overspend?

I think most conservatives do want to help those that need it but want a small state. They want minimum interference. They want the best for everyone in the one nation tradition. They believe successful business that pays tax and employs people is the best way forward. They don’t want high government borrowing and prefer people to make their own decisions with guidance and not enforcement.

There are lots of decent Tories. You only hear about the far right.


IceCreamAndCandyfloss · 13/12/2019 18:14

Are you honestly saying that everyone can become successful

You don’t have to become successful, they just want people to self support and take personally responsibility for the choices they make.


Lily193 · 13/12/2019 18:16

I'm not against higher taxes when the the burden is fairly shared by all, such as a 1% increase for everyone. I am against a party that expects 5% of high earners to shoulder the burden.


SweetAsSpice · 13/12/2019 18:17

So how does one do this? Are you honestly saying that everyone can become successful?

DH came from a third world country, and is now incredibly successful. So yes, I’ve seen it happen. I am aware he was afforded the opportunity to come here because of our previous immigration system.

Voted labour. As for the future, I don’t know Sad


Letthemysterybe · 13/12/2019 18:20

I don’t think voting for less tax = more efficient govt spending


EvilEdna1 · 13/12/2019 18:21

My in laws are members of the Tory party and they are early 70s and 80. They come from working class families but went to grammar schools in the post war period and went onto higher education. Managed to buy a large detached house and put their kids through private school on the wages of a specialised public sector job and a teacher. They genuinely that if everyone worked as hard as them (not very) they could have the same.


Brimful · 13/12/2019 18:22

They just want people to self support and take personally responsibility for the choices they make

Which is easy if you have the opportunity, means and a big dose of luck along the way.

I don't think the disadvantaged, discriminated and disabled choose to not self support.

It's a privileged view to believe it's as simple as 'work hard and you'll succeed'. That, sadly, is bullshit a fairytale.


MojoMoon · 13/12/2019 18:23

How much do you think putting up MPs in a hostel in London would save as a % of total government expenditure? And how much do you think that result as a reduction in your taxes?

Do large projects never run over time and over budget in the private sector? I work in the energy sector and can think of some fairly massive overruns in our projects.

The problem is the numbers involved in heath/pensions/expenditure are so large (trillions, billions, gazillions, bajillions) they become almost complete meaningless.

So people focus on what are relatively tiny sums of money that "could be cut" because they feel tangible and therefore justifies them being against paying more tax.


lilybetsy · 13/12/2019 18:24

not everyone can become successful, not everyone has control over the hand life deals them ( illness /disability) but far more people have options to work and fairly contribute, take responsibility for their own life choices and be proactive than they actually are. I am a 'high earner' I pay a 47% marginal tax rate, and I'm happy to do so. BUT I resent being asked to pay yet more because I worked bloody hard, take risks and have made many sacrifices, when others are not asked to do this. Actually I voted Lib Dem for Brexit reasons, but in my heart I am a Tory....


chomalungma · 13/12/2019 18:24

I wonder how their fundamental beliefs are going to have to change to keep the ex Labour support alive?


Beadyohfeedme · 13/12/2019 18:26

I just keep thinking of the guy I know through work with who is a six foot five black guy with mild learning difficulties. What's the likelyhood he is going to make it out of poverty and off benefits? The idea that anyone can better their situation is a myth. And yes I think race comes into it. The amount of dark skinned black people you see in positions of power is minimal. In the NHS you get black housekeepers, black HCA's, black nurses, some black doctors, black chief executives? None.

OP posts:

CalamityJune · 13/12/2019 18:27

It's my very amateur understanding that they are of the belief that people and especially businesses do best with the minimum of state interference and that by creating wealth and opportunities, everyone benefits. I think there is an acceptance that no, not everyone will be successful but that there should be opportunity and desire to better yourself.


Dragongirl10 · 13/12/2019 18:31

Pretty much all the Conservative voters l know, and they come from all walks of life, feel that to the best of one's ability, people should take responsibility for their actions and choices first and foremost.

But equally believe that there will always be those who don't have that ability, ie disabled/unwell/mentally unwell/ carers, those who have fallen on hard times, and that an, economically strong economy is best able to support those people.
However they give short shrift to those who play the system/ are lazy.

The endless issue occurs in the fair distribution of wealth created....that is where sucessive governments have failed on both sides.
Successful people who already pay between 25 % and 45% of their income, really resent being branded selfish becaue they don't want to pay more, ( especially if by those who are already being supported in some cases) or are happy to pay more as long as it is put to good use and not squandered as all governments seem to do.

I think most people want the same things, a safe, stable country with good schooling, healthcare and infastructure.

The differences occur in how to achieve this.


Flimflamfloogety · 13/12/2019 18:32

You don’t have to become successful, they just want people to self support and take personally responsibility for the choices they make.

This, a 1000 times this.

You cannot push out a litter of children and expect the tax payer to pick up the bill. For every unemployed family of 8 on benefits that refuse to stop breeding, that money could be better spent on an additional nurse for the NHS or the money could be redirected to someone in genuine need ie disabled.

We dont oppose benefits, we oppose the frittering of our hard earned money on sroungers who never intend to work. Benefits should be for the most vulnerable in society, and quite frankly the inability to wrap your willy or keep your legs shut is not someone in genuine need.

FYI, I come from a working class background and grew up in a housing association property. Both my parents worked hard and set a good example for me. Despite their circumstances (having me unplanned and my dad suffering bad back problems) they have both always found a way to work to ensure they could put food on the table and keep a roof over my head. I did not go to uni, but I worked bloody hard to get to where I am in my career and earn a reasonable salary. Through my hard work I have been able to buy a property and have a child of my own. So yeah, I don't want my hard earned cash being wasted on those who choose not to work.


Alsohuman · 13/12/2019 18:32

Well some chairs and chief execs are black, not enough but some.


7Worfs · 13/12/2019 18:36

In a nutshell:

Economic right believes in equality of opportunity.
Economic left believes in equality of outcome.


Judemahmoodid · 13/12/2019 18:36

I didn’t vote Tory because I’m a Remainer but generally I do. For reasons mentioned above about people taking personal financial responsibility for themselves and the offspring they (choose to) have and not looking for what they’re “entitled to”.
I’m all for a social welfare safety net but not as a way of life. The equivalent American would work 3 jobs to get by because their welfare system is far less generous.


lampygirl · 13/12/2019 18:37

I work for a small business, one where the director is very much another pair of hands on the ground. I want this business to thrive so my job can too.

I also took my financial position into consideration when making my life choices and I do believe in taking responsibility for your choices, whatever they are.


Beadyohfeedme · 13/12/2019 18:43

Who are these scroungers? I don't know any. I live next to a huge council estate where the queue for methadone snakes out of the chemist and past the burger joint. The idea that anyone would choose that life is baffling.
I know people who make poor life choices in all walks of life. The only difference is that those from well off families have the means to hide their shortcomings from society. You know, the family with the junkie son who set him up in a flat in the garden and bring him heroine so that at least 'he's safe.' He's still a junkie. He still costs the state when he escapes. Rich people acting like they're immune from making poor choices Hmm

OP posts:
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