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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask about the fundamental Tory belief?

184 replies

Beadyohfeedme · 13/12/2019 17:40

So I've argued with quite a few people today about this issue, not on MN but in RL and on other forums. Most tories I know seem to share this belief that we are all responsible for our own fortune, or lack of it.
So that's the underlying reason that they are against higher taxes ('I've worked hard so why should I pay for those who haven't.')

So how does one do this? Are you honestly saying that everyone can become successful?

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Acciocats · 14/12/2019 08:54

Pigeon agree it’s very complex, I don’t think anyone is denying that. But it’s very frustrating when proposals for practical support and interventions get vilified without a chance. Eg there is a lot of sense in issuing food vouchers to families such as you describe to prevent feckless parents smoking, snorting or drinking benefits away rather than feeding their children nutritious food. But whenever this sort of thing is proposed there’s a whole swathe of people complaining that it’s undignified and a breach of human rights.

It is very complex but surely we know enough by now to see that throwing money at people isn’t the answer. Benefits money is pretty crap, no one is going to be living the life of Riley on it, but getting back to my previous point, too many people aren’t going to feel much better off by working. It’s a vicious circle that needs to be broken

DdraigGoch · 14/12/2019 08:56

Who are these scroungers? I don't know any.
There was a family from Liverpool in the papers a few weeks ago. Complaining that their benefits were being capped. They'd amassed seven kids in seven years because he refuses any kind of contraception (no, they weren't Catholic). Why should anyone else have to pay for their lack of responsibility? I get that it's not fair on the kids if they go without but frankly it is the job of parents to provide for their kids, not everyone else.

Beadyohfeedme · 14/12/2019 08:58

@Chattybum how many kids of junkie parents do you know? Cos I went to school with loads of them. If you'd taken them away from their parents they definitely wouldn't have flourished. The loyalty to that parent or parent is unwavering. Nearly all school fights were the result of 'you said my mum was o crack' 'you said my dad was in prison for nicking!' Why do you imagine these children don't feel anything for their parents?
How many people from my school year do I know is on heroine? Two. Way less than grew up with parents who were. I left school in 2002 and there were lots more opportunities for us in that time. Most of the kids from my year got a trade. The one who's dad was in prison for murder is a self employed plumber. The one who's parents were often crashed out on the kerb outside school, I see her in town in office type clothes, don't know what she does.
Some could see this as a sign that anyone can make it and turn out ok but as I was at school with them I remember what it was like. There was an attitude of anyone can do anything, no one was written off. It was the time when working class people were everywhere in the media, and in politics too. I think this had a big part to play in why more kids didn't do hard drugs at school.
I work in a secure unit with young people from very traumatic backgrounds. There is very little hope for the future. 'They don't care about people like us' one of our service users said yesterday.

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IceCreamAndCandyfloss · 14/12/2019 09:00

Huge difference in someone claiming benefits and Amazon etc. One is taking from the pot and other tax payers whist the other is contributing to the economy with its services, employing thousands of people, paying due taxes where applicable etc.

Yes of course businesses will look to keep tax bills as low as possible just like many self employed people do. No different than turning down pay rises or extra hours to keep benefits, both are maximising their money.

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Beadyohfeedme · 14/12/2019 09:05

So you think it's fair that a little business like my dp's butchers shop has to pay so much in business tax whilst huge corporations like Amazon pay so little?
Yet one person in a council flat not working for a few years is detrimental for the country's economy?
Do you see how wrong your thinking is?

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Chattybum · 14/12/2019 09:07

I think the fact you have your job proves that government does care. Who pays your wages? Those kids wouldn't have the support of a secure unit and low staff to student ratio's if not. They would be left to struggle in school or out of it. And no I don't think keeping kids with drug addict parents is a way of enabling a happy and stable family. If your experience says otherwise then fine, I won't argue with that but most data shows that children bought up in chaotic houses often end up self medicating with drugs later in life, perpetuating the cycle.

Chattybum · 14/12/2019 09:07

I never said anything about Amazon.

hiddenmnetter · 14/12/2019 09:07

I think alot is based on several things:

First, I can spend my money more effectively than the government. There are some things the government can do that I cannot, and I think that government rightly exists for those purposes (things like the provision of justice, international trade, effective monopolies that require hundreds of years to see the value of investment like railways, ports and docks, Water and gas infrastructure, roads, etc). But government provision of virtually any other economic good is generally trying to work out what I want and spend the money for me. The provision of local cultural services, for instance (like the recent local pagan festival) is not something I am interested in or interested in funding. Such things are therefore spending my money on things that I don't want in there mistaken belief that I do want them.

Second, the government spending my money involves necessary losses, which should, as far as possible be avoided. First, the collection of tax involves a loss- pissing tax men, paying auditors, etc, as well as list productivity while people attempt to comply with tax law (this is the more significant loss). Secondly, government spending is rarely efficient- because governments are political and their spending is political, a great deal of money has to be spent to ensure political compliance (data recording etc.). Additionally, there is a disproportionate effect from Union activity in public sector because the lack of services is felt politically rather than purely economically. And because politicians are keen to avoid political pain, they're happy to spend money that isn't their own and didn't cost them anything to make a problem go away. Related to that is the way governments spend money: if the money you spend isn't your own, you become less concerned with the way it is spent. If you are a weak manager, and find it hard to sack someone, or to deal with them effectively, you might think, oh it's fine I'll push them sideways, and we can just pay them until they retire in a meaningless role. Just easier than sacking them really. Which makes sense if you're not spending your money. Private companies tend not to do such things because it will push up the price of their products and make them less competitive. But if you're spending tax money, the belief that there's always more where that came from becomes easy to live with (think how much the NHS spends on paracetamol for instance).

I'm not opposed to a social safety net, but I am opposed to heavily taxing me to pay for things that I would pay for myself. Education and healthcare are things that I would be prepared to spend money on, and I would prefer that the NHS had a more moderate provision that could then be topped up by private spending (I like the Australian system for instance- and I strongly disagree that the only possible options are NHS or US style system, it's a complete non-sequiter and is a hugely convenient way of hiding the fact that we get quite a poor return on what we spend on the NHS).

In short, I don't think that Tory's are anti government or anti government spending or anti welfare, but it is coupled by a deep mistrust of the state to spend funds effectively, and therefore trends to be more circumspect at the potential of government to solve social problems through government spending. If you believe that government spending can solve all or most social issues then you will, I think, see Tory's as cold and callous. Some may be, but I think that most are just cautious about the potential of government to actually achieve what they set out to achieve, and this is further twisted when the government had it's hands on your money, and then gets lobbied to spend it in ways your disagree with (for instance I object that having taken taxes off me for the purpose of educating my children, there exist government proposals to introduce stonewall and mermaid policies into education). This is the problem with government spending.

The other problem with government spending is it undoes social capital. When the government spends money in a certain area (say, poverty relief) it means that local, social and community based efforts to provide that relief get replaced. Which means you are now dependent on government intervention forever more because people accept that poverty relief is government responsibility rather than their own social responsibility (because, of course, by paying taxes they are contributing to poverty relief). But going back to the previous points, a greater overall amount of money is required to achieve the same relief because of the inherent inefficiencies in government spending, as well as the fact that it ignores the natural efficiency of certain local social structures because they are often made up of people volunteering their time for free anyway.

So in place of what was probably a quite modest, probably overrun, but very efficient service which built up community cohesion, it's replaced by a professional, probably underfunded due to the inefficiencies service run by people who may not even live in the area who are just there cause it's their job, and the next time there's a funding cut the service gets cut because there's no more money, and all those volunteers who used to run a struggling but efficient local service are all doing something else now.

TLDR: governments are inefficient, probably don't know what I want anyway, overtly politicise what they get involved with, often replace and denude the services they do replace, and are not good vehicles of social cohesion.

Their good points: they can provide intergenerational investment in infrastructure as they exist long enough to see the returns, they can provide services that no-one else can justly provide themselves (like justice and military).

Interestingly and perhaps controversially, I would support government subsidies of farming. I think that food security is something that all countries should maintain, and so while we can all get our cheap veggies from Spanish poly tunnels, if that supply was ever cut off, it would be wise and prudent to have infrastructure in place to immediately kick in, rather than however many years it would take to get people farming with the necessary skills and experience, etc. Which I'm not sure if it's a Tory way of thinking of not.

ghostyslovesheets · 14/12/2019 09:10

chattybum if you think kids flourish in care you are deluded

The problem with thinking we live in a meritocracy is that we don’t - there are no deserving and undeserving poor - people are complex and being poor or struggling or being socially and economically disadvantaged aren’t character flaws they are created by the economic system we live in

Beadyohfeedme · 14/12/2019 09:17

@ghostyslovesheets exactly. Unfortunately care doesn't give many a happy ending. One of the kids i knew was wheeled up to the top of a building in his pushchair and his mum jumped off the building. So he was in care from a very young age and then adopted. Severe attachment problems. Developmental delays.
Crippling psychosis.
Criminal record.
I would argue being housed in a secure unit and getting trolley food on Christmas Day and being given a £5 voucher for a present that you can't spend because you have no community leave is pretty uncaring to be honest.

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IceCreamAndCandyfloss · 14/12/2019 09:17

So you think it's fair that a little business like my dp's butchers shop has to pay so much in business tax whilst huge corporations like Amazon pay so little

There’s simply no comparison. That articles says Amazon paid 4.5m in tax and their average employee salary is £33k. So all those many many employees will be paying tax as well as benefitting from jobs. Their huge amount of customers are benefiting from a very effective service at competitive prices helping the economy.

Yes small businesses and self employed people may pay tax but how many are still claiming benefits so aren’t net contributors.

Chattybum · 14/12/2019 09:19

@ghostyslovesheets no I don't, I said they have a CHANCE.

Rosehip10 · 14/12/2019 09:20

Main beliefs are sod everyone else and that anyones problems or issues can be sorted if they "worked hard".

Chattybum · 14/12/2019 09:22

@Beadyohfeedme right so the care system is responsible for his issues, not perhaps witnessing his mum throw herself off a building? Again with the using of total extremes. Do you think a labour government would have been able to do anything different for that person is my question.

ghostyslovesheets · 14/12/2019 09:23

Care experienced kids are more like to be in prison than university- not a chance I would take - which is why so much work is done to keep families together

Acciocats · 14/12/2019 09:24

Kids in care often don’t flourish, no. But neither do they flourish in a home where at best their physical and emotional needs are neglected and at worst they’re suffering actual abuse.

ghostyslovesheets · 14/12/2019 09:29

Yet once they are 18 the Tory way is to blame them for being fucked up and poor

Let’s not ignore the huge cuts this government have made to schools, children’s services, family support services - it’s like taking some ones wheelchair and then accusing them of being too lazy to walk

Beadyohfeedme · 14/12/2019 09:31

@Chattybum all this talk of extremes, did you ever think that life is pretty extreme? And hard for many many people. Your own experiences are not everyone else's. I grew up in poverty with a single mum, getting a hamper delivered at Christmas from the local church which we also attended (just to add to embarrassment.) Then when I was 26 someone I didn't even know existed died and left me £200,000. That's pretty extreme but it didn't mean it didn't happen.
I spend every working day hearing stories about upbringings which would make you and anyone cry. They are not extreme they are the norm for many many people. Child abuse is the norm, narcissistic parents are the norm, mental health issues are the norm. Sheltered bubbles are unhealthy for society as you really don't want to see past your own experiences. I could have taken that money and never looked back or around me, but I remember what it is was like. I remember what it feels like to be judged and written off and considered a burden on the state.
That feeling when I was looking at houses and the estate agents thought it was a joke that this scruffy mixed race girl with a crying baby was gunna buy a house from them. That's how it feels very every day to be poor. Constantly underestimated, never valued. And that's how this forum makes me feel every time I log on.

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Acciocats · 14/12/2019 09:31

Best post on this thread is from @hiddenmnetter.
Reasoned, intelligent debate.

MrsJoshNavidi · 14/12/2019 09:42

I am fed up of my cousin, who largely lives off benefits, in a small house, telling me that I am "lucky" to have a large house and a good holidays a couple of tomes a year.

There is NO luck in it. We had a very similar background and upbringing. I went to university and worked hard there. I also went back to work when each DC was about 4 months old, because I thought that, long term, this would be best for all of us. (This is prior to the mech better maternity rights women have now).

My cousin left school at 16 and has dipped in and out of low paying jobs. Didn't work until the kids were mid teens, and has stayed married to an ineffectual farmer who's farm makes a loss each year (this is purely down to mismanagement - eg not being able to sell cows because he's forgotten to get them TB tested etc)

I am not lucky.

Frenchw1fe · 14/12/2019 09:50

@IceCreamAndCandyfloss
You're not related to Alan B'stard by any chance?

Beadyohfeedme · 14/12/2019 09:59

@MrsJoshNavidi there may not be luck in your story but there is a lot of luck in other examples. My ex-boss was a very wealthy woman, her dd had just finished her A Levels at one of the top private schools in the country. She got D,E and an ungraded. Not great.
My boss spent all day ringing round various friends to get her dd work experiences in many different sectors. She ended up as a P.A for a top firm in London. Then her mum kept telling us all how daughter had worked and how she was a real go getter. Hmmm. Her ds also didn't get the grades to get into business school so his dad created a business for him to run (the idea, capital and website were all his dads.) After they kept going on about their entrepreneurial son, how he started from nothing and grew his business, and look how successful he is!

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Acciocats · 14/12/2019 10:09

Of course there are elements of luck. No one has denied that. We can round and round in circles playing tit for tat citing individual examples of people who’ve got lucky and people who’ve pulled themselves up from nothing with no helping hand

The point which has been made clearly and consistently is that personal choice does play a role, and that you can take two people from the same back ground, from the same family even and they can take quite different paths in life. That isn’t all about luck- it includes factors such as personal motivation, the resilience to work hard even when things are tough, to put up with short term hardship for long term gain.

Beadyohfeedme · 14/12/2019 10:24

@Acciocats have you ever worked out how much you would be entitled to on benefits? It's not much. Therefore people will always want to work and better themselves. That will never change.
The main problems I have with the Tories are;
1.) we do not all have equal opportunities.
2.) those with disabilities (mental or physical) should be provided with sufficient funds to work and not have to go through demeaning tests.
3.) there should be more understanding of working parents and childcare shouldn't cost more than most can afford.
4.) it should pay to work. This should come from raising the minimum wage.
5.) immigrants are good for the country and free movement has improved things. When I used to advertise for cafe shop staff we didn't have many brutish applicants. We didn't deliberately decide to hire all Eastern European's!

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