To ask about the fundamental Tory belief?

[Beadyohfeedme]

So I've argued with quite a few people today about this issue, not on MN but in RL and on other forums. Most tories I know seem to share this belief that we are all responsible for our own fortune, or lack of it.
So that's the underlying reason that they are against higher taxes ('I've worked hard so why should I pay for those who haven't.')

So how does one do this? Are you honestly saying that everyone can become successful?

@Flimflamfloogety perfectly put. I couldn’t agree more. So many lefties think that it’s the posh people voting Tory but this clearly isn’t wholly the case, given the number of labour strongholds that have been lost. These are working class people who have never voted Tory before.

Forgot to add that I also think that a privileged background brings additional obligations to humanity at large such as paying taxes to help liberate the disadvantaged from their dependence on the state (obviously this requires good public spending), creating something remarkable, making important scientific breakthroughs, creating jobs for others by starting a business, volunteering in charity of public service etc. Having a better start means you should do more than just support yourself, you have a moral obligation to help others.

Beadyohfeedme yes people are literally saying those things but I know plenty of labour voters who feel the same way and plenty of tories who don't. My point it there isn't one big group think on either side. You are noticing what you are looking for, not what is there, because you've got your prejudice blinkers on.

You wouldn’t have been taking a pay cut though, what you mean is less tax payers money being received so yes I most certainly would have taken a promotion to be more self sufficient and it shouldn’t even be a choice.

I’ve worked two jobs in the past to ensure I could pay bills, a benefits claim to me is for when you simply cannot work due to ill health or disability, not a choice because people don’t want to work more.

@SquareAsABlock your post made me cry as it was so close to home that I felt overwhelmed. You know what it's like in a way that I feel no one else has even bothered to try and understand.
The concept is 'fair' is strange to me in regards to the right wing way of thinking. So it's ok and fair to be able to send your children to a great private school and give them the best possible chance to get a good job. I think anyone of any political leaning agrees that a lot of the top jobs go to those from private schools.
Yet somehow, someone who hasn't had the best start in life isn't entitled to top up benefits to redress the balance of them having little chance of getting a really good job. Somehow we don't feel this is fair.
Also punishing children by pushing their children further into poverty is also seen as fair. Because their parents should have been more responsible and self reliant, preferably had thought about the future and decided that actually they hadn't warranted that right to see their own child take their first steps or say mama or eat mushed up carrots and smear them all over the table. I'm just an admin and my dp is a butcher and yes I guess we should have been more disciplined and not procreated until we were both on £30K or at least able to buy a house in Bristol (average house price 290k) how very irresponsible of us!

@IceCreamAndCandyfloss I would have.
My job pays £9.75 per hour, the promotion would have taken me up to £12 p.h. I would have lost all my tax credits (£483 per month) and my take home pay would have been £1,200. You do the maths.
No one is going to take on a job with twice the stress and twice the responsibilities to earn £300 less per month. Do you think Boris would?

Do some Tory voters really believe that people are in poverty because they don't work hard enough?? Care workers, retail workers, cleaners, nursery workers etc don't work hard? Poverty amongst the working poor is one of the biggest issues in our current society. Food banks are widely used by people in work. And it's not enough to say they should better themselves - these jobs still need to be done.

As for the suggestion that people should just work three jobs like they have to do in the US - I can't believe anyone actually wants us to emulate a society with such discrepancy between rich and poor. Disgusting.

@Beadyohfeedme, I'm sorry i didnt mean to cause upset. We've been there in terms of benefits, it's a hell I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. Its been 4 years since we initially claimed and we're only just clawing our way out of it. The only reason we're managing is due to family help, something so many don't even have anymore. Still owe £££ due to mistakes they made from processing our claim. If my husband or I came to an accident tomorrow, I'd hate to think what situation the other would find themselves in. We were both working before we had our first child as well, all went to absolute shit literally after he was just born. It utterly blindsides you, so incredibly difficult to build yourself back up. I dont think many people understand that. I know our story isn't unique, not be a very long shot.

@DippyAvocado yes they do. When I struggling working in the nhs and cleaning houses on the side (weekends and evenings) I was told on MN I should have tried harder at school (I have a 2:1 degree in English lit.)

Poverty amongst the working poor is one of the biggest issues in our current society. Food banks are widely used by people in work

I wonder how many food banks there'll be in 5 years time?

@DippyAvocado surely that would equalise rich and poor? Most well paid jobs I can think of require years of 100 hour weeks.

@ChristmasSpirtsOnTheRocksPleas name one?

Economic right believes in equality of opportunity.
Economic left believes in equality of outcome.
Excellent

Economic right believes in equality of opportunity.
Economic left believes in equality of outcome.

Except that isn't true, because the right's 'equality of opportunity' ignores the fact that in this society we have very unequal opportunities according to the class (for want of a better word) into which you are born and the economic right declines to support those who lack the opportunities that others are lucky enough to find themselves with. I would actually say that it is the left who believe in equality of opportunity by seeking to address to imbalance of opportunity in the first place.

• @DippyAvocado surely that would equalise rich and poor? Most well paid jobs I can think of require years of 100 hour weeks.*

Please do name some because that smacks of being completely out of touch with the real world!!

Most Tories I know believe in meritocracy and opportunity creation.

Every single child in the country is entitled to a free education and free healthcare. These things alone provide a HUGE beneficial start in life compared with most of the world. An education is the most valuable thing a society can give a child so yes, everyone has an equal opportunity in that sense in this country.

However you cant GIVE someone an education, you can only OFFER them one.

That is why parents and children in other cultures have huge respect for teachers, they understand that education is usually the only way out of poverty.

You cannot push out a litter of children

This phrase intrigues me. The post later mentions 8 children. So is 8 a 'litter'? I'm more familiar with the word 'litter' being used to describe animals, but here it's being used to describe human beings.

How many children constitute a 'litter'? Mr and Mrs Rees-Mogg have 6 children, did she 'push out a litter'? Or is it just poor people who have 'litters'? Mr Johnson has 5 children, possibly more, although as these are not all with the same woman, maybe they aren't a 'litter'?

I think using this term to describe a family is horrible. Sarah Vine, wife of Michael Gove, called people on a protest march 'sub-human'; is describing some people as less than human, or as animals, now acceptable? And if so, to whom?

An education is the most valuable thing a society can give a child so yes, everyone has an equal opportunity in that sense in this country.

This just isn’t true though is it? You only have to have had a bit of contact with disadvantaged families to see that (I’m not saying some parents aren’t at fault but often it comes down to lack of education and poverty). It’s widely acknowledged that a child’s life chances have already largely been mapped out by the time they are 2 years old, before they start any formal education. This comes from the governments own reports, which is also why low income families are offered nursery hours at 2 rather than 3. That’s what I find so depressing. This government have made early years services virtually non existent in many areas of the country. Sure start was a great initiative that barely exists. Which also will cost more in the long run, as families end up being referred to social services when in my area we used to have several (much cheaper to fund)support services before that stage that did excellent work with families that needed a bit of extra support. I find so many of the cuts incredibly short sighted.

the comments about promotions leading to less money is why UC was introduced. I know there are dreadful stories of UC going wrong for people but the basic principle is that it will always pay to work. This has to be the basis of our benefits system as I have come across so many people in my 30 years in Healthcare who have told me they cannot afford to work as they would lose so many benefits. Yes we must look after vulnerable people but we must have a system where it pays to be in work. Universal credits it's a good idea but needs to be adjusted to avoid the nightmares families are thrown into when it goes wrong. The initial loan should be paid back over a very long period, queries and mistakes need to be dealt with quickly. Emergency loans should be immediate. It can definitely be improved but I have heard CAB and Joseph Rowntree workers who help people with debt say it is a good system when it goes to plan.

@Solihooley what do you suggest the government does about? You can't somehow force all parents to be equal can you. So what is the solution?

You can't force adults into education to be better parents, and the parents that are in the most need of knowledge and education are frequently the hardest to engage and the least likely to go.

I think the Tory belief is that you need to enable people to 'succeed' and then they'll pay society back. A lot of people think Conservatism's central flaw is that it relies on people being selfish but if anything I think its problem is it believes people will be compelled to give back once they do well!

I am coming from a background of Tory parents who I love and respect although my siblings and I are all to the political left, BTW.

Sure start centres are a great idea and it's a shame that councils have closed so many. But I don't think they are a silver bullet to equality.

I don't believe in equality of outcome,I believe in equality of opportunity.But,fir example,giving every child a state education is not equality of opportunity,as their ability to profit from that education depends on many other aspects of their lives.If you don't factor this in you are not providing equality of opportunity.
I don't think equality of outcome is possible...
I'm on the left.

And "push out a litter of children"? People as animals? People as lesser or substandard? Doesn't say much for the poster really.