To ask about the fundamental Tory belief?

[Beadyohfeedme]

So I've argued with quite a few people today about this issue, not on MN but in RL and on other forums. Most tories I know seem to share this belief that we are all responsible for our own fortune, or lack of it.
So that's the underlying reason that they are against higher taxes ('I've worked hard so why should I pay for those who haven't.')

So how does one do this? Are you honestly saying that everyone can become successful?

their ability to profit from that education depends on many other aspects of their lives.

Can you expand on those aspects and explain what labour would do to mitigate each one please.

You see the language used on here speaks volumes. You aren’t ‘taking a pay cut’ if you take on a promotion / work more hours to earn more but lose tax credits. You are actually taking a pay increase - you are earning more, but you aren’t getting topped up by state funds so much.

Personally I think tax credits were a huge mistake in the first place; they encouraged a culture whereby some people calculate the minimum amount they need to work for the maximum gain in top ups. We all know people (and they pop up regularly on MN) who deliberately work part time or avoid promotions because they’d rather get topped up than have to work to earn the equivalent money.

As pp say, the bottom line is that work should pay. I would like to see a higher NMW. I also disagree with the fact that social housing was sold off. People should be able to earn enough if they work full time even in a minimum wage job to have decent housing without needing to rely on benefits - it’s scandalous that the country is in this situation.

I believe any reasonable person whatever their party politics wants a society where those in genuine need are supported. If you’re too sick, or disabled and cannot support yourself then the state has a responsibility to support you. But I also believe that reasonable people have had enough of the culture of dependency whereby a section of the population look to the state to support them rather than even attempting to take personal responsibility.

@Beadyohfeedme I've accepted a promotion at work, which is wiping out our eligibility for Universal Credit. We will be financially roughly the same as when we were on UC, with me of course working harder.

But guess what? That money was meant to be a helping hand till I could better support our family. It wasn't meant to be our new normal. This is the problem with the benefits system--people become accustomed to extra money for less work, rather than thanking their lucky stars that they had access to financial help in their worst times. I for one am looking forward to progressing at work and being self sufficient, rather than relying on the state. I don't know why you are incredulous at the notion that some people might want to advance their careers and teach their kids that handouts are a last resort, not a way to keep the poverty cycle going.

Tax payers' money seems to go into the pockets of landlords and corporations. Because corporations don't pay high enough wages so the state has to top them up. Essentially the state is paying there extra wages so companies don't have to. There isn't enough housing, therefore rents are high, so the state has to pay housing benefit. Tax money is passing into private hands rather than providing infrastructure and services. It's not like the people on benefits are saving it up for their retirement. The system is set up so that tax paid returns to private hands as much as possible. That's how privatisation works.

The middle are paying tax to the uppermost rung, basically. But the uppermost rung have convinced the middle that it's those on the bottom that are taking their tax.

That's obviously simplistic but there's no denying that the top 1% are getting progressively richer while the other 99% are not. The money is going in one direction.

Education is important but there are many other avenues. Our truck drivers at work earn around £35k and the only qualification required is a license which can be obtained in 4-5 days if you can already drive a car - there are even gov schemes which will fund this in some areas. The industry is facing a massive shortage with the average driver being 55yo, so we've dropped the 'two years experience' and started taking on new passes subject to assessment.

I've managed to talk three of the driver's mates into accepting the company's training scheme and two are now fully qualified with the third taking his test soon. All three are young, working class males with next to zero qualifications and seemingly little ambition, and they will all have jumped from close to minimum wage up to £35k - a great salary to be on in one's early/mid 20s with zero qualifications.

I wish I could get more young guys to look at this kind of thing as it would help with some of the problems this country has.

*how is it that we are continuously pointing the finger down at those who take from the state, when we should also be pointing the finger up? When will the Tories actually focus on this huge issue?

So yes, people need to have some self reliance but it's not so easy to do so when it feels your pulling yourself up a cliff and theres a person above you throwing rocks and calling you a scrounger.*

This absolutely! But somehow I don’t think this will be a priority for Boris and his mates

Really impressed with your training scheme donutman, it sounds great. Do be aware though that for kids from deprived areas a driving license is often an impossible dream. My best mate works in a school in a very deprived area and most of the kids don’t learn to drive because:
A) Their parents don’t have a car and so they don’t have anything to practice in
B) They can’t afford lessons
C) insurance!! If they do manage to get a license, insurance premiums are obscene for new drivers I’m deprived areas. We’re talking £3000 a year.

I think a lot of people don’t realise just how little kids growing up in poverty have. Not enough food, No heating, no holidays, no day trips, nowhere to do their homework. Best friend worked with teenagers who had never been to the large city centre two miles away, it was literally a different world. They set up a new school to try and improve life chances - free breakfasts, good lunches, canteen open in summer (for kids not getting food at home), shortened summer holiday (six weeks is pretty miserable stuck in one place with a chaotic home life), lots of support for vocational courses to get kids into work straight out of school if that’s what they wanted (which lots did- they wanted independence). Tories came along and completely shafted the school- under Goves reforms the vocational courses lost all value. School is now struggling and at what cost to those kids? It breaks my heart tbh, there was so much hope before.
Anyway, I digress. Maybe your company could look into funding an access scheme to help young people get their driving license?

@IceCreamAndCandyfloss

*Are you honestly saying that everyone can become successful

You don’t have to become successful, they just want people to self support and take personally responsibility for the choices they make.*

Mental illness stems from genetics (not a choice), adverse childhood events (not a choice), trauma (not a choice). Explain to me how those individuals will “self support”? These are the people who need society’s support, care and compassion and they are the ones being stripped of NHS mental health services, there benefits being clawed back and being priced out of safe housing.

People don't give back when they do well though Echobelly. Think of everyone bleating on about how the rich would leave if Corbyn got in to avoid higher taxation. The rich hoard wealth...which is why they are rich. Noone got rich by being 'nice.'

@CustardOmlet It seems that every time personal accountability is brought up, people bring up the most vulnerable of society, acting as though people are arguing that absolutely everyone, no matter the circumstances, should be worked like a horse. When will people learn that the exeptions are not the rule, and it shouldn't give able bodied and minded people a pass to be dependant on the state if they don't need to be, just because there are others that need a genuine helping hand. If anything, you should be arguing that people who can should be out providing for themselves, and not dropping out babies before financially stable, rather than taking money out of the pot that could be given to the disabled etc. But of course, you'll probably argue that 'I don't know the circumstances why someone decided to have 3 kids with no stable relationship/ money in the bank,' and that they probably couldn't help it. And lack of education or something

Pigeon excellent point about vocational qualifications.

At the moment it feels as though young people are either funnelled into Uni (whether it’s suitable for them or not) or .... not much else. So many young people would be far more suited to good quality training in a practical skill. It’s also a route to decent earning.... ive known young people I have taught who come from disadvantaged backgrounds and don’t have many academic qualifications but are now earning good money in practical jobs. But we need to somehow get back to valuing these vocational courses and steering young people in the right direction so that they don’t feel a failure unless they get a degree. Germany manages it well, why can’t we?

Still think the bottom line is making work pay. People should of course have their basic needs met and access to housing and so on, on benefits BUT they need to feel significantly better off once they’re in work. Yes we all know there are many other advantages to working - self esteem, long term security in a pension etc - but people should also be able to feel an immediate benefit too in terms of more money in their pocket. It’s clear that it’s very hard to encourage people into work if they know that getting up early and working a 37 hour week is not going to make much (if any) tangible difference because they’ll be losing money in tax credits. Some people like @virginpinkmartini above will take the longer term view that of course working is better. But a lot of people won’t- they’ll look just at the here and now and won’t want to work harder/ longer for no immediate financial gain.

NMW should be higher. Anyone working a full week in a NMW Job should be significantly better off than someone who’s on benefits and not working (of course someone with a disability rendering them unable to work is in a different situation)

Decent affordable housing needs to be built, with more schemes to enable people to get onto the ladder too.

In short, I had the same education available to me as the same girl my age who has 3 different kids with 3 different dads, and 'works at full-time mummy'. Real person I know by the way. I have two children by the same dad (been with for 10 years, I'm 27 now), and I'm a head chef. She grew up with her parents together, my dad abandoned me when I was 6 months old. My mum and stepdad were poor, and there were four of us. So hell yeah, there is an element of personal choice when you compare the two paths we have taken. Judgemental? Perhaps. But I'm not judging her as a person, I'm shaking my head at the unnecessary hardships she is facing, and the fact that the state is essentially raising her kids.

@virginpinkmartini

But of course, you'll probably argue that 'I don't know the circumstances why someone decided to have 3 kids with no stable relationship/ money in the bank,

Could not have said it better myself. You do not know and you do not care. Life does not take a perfect upwards trajectory, experiences change and people struggle. The suicide rate and trend following the 2008 financial crisis is an indicator of this.

@virginpinkmartini makes some excellent points.

Rather than debate getting derailed by people bringing up examples of individuals in extreme situations, it’s far more useful to talk in terms of the majority.

We all know that you can take two people from the same background, with the same level of opportunity, with the same advantages and disadvantages, and they won’t make the same choices and take the same path in life. Because personal choice does play a big role. I’ve seen it in my own family... one of my siblings has made some really poor life choices. We were raised by the same parents, went to the same school (he actually did slightly better than me in terms of exam results) so there’s no way you could argue he hasn’t had the opportunities. And yes life throws curve balls too - illness, redundancy etc - but again, no two people will deal with hardships in the same way. People put too little emphasis on personal choice and responsibility.

I came from a poor background. Education was just something you endured until you were old enough to leave school and get pregnant. Fortunately I realised (no one told me or encouraged me) that it was my lifeline out of being poor so despite being bullied for it I studied hard at school.

I have seen people expecting benefits to be there so they don't have to work or they work the minimum they can get away with. Equally I have seen people take on multiple jobs rather than fall onto benefits.

My belief is that personal responsibility should definitely come into it with safety nets for those that need them. If you can't work because of disability or illness they should provide a reasonable standard of living. However, for those experiencing hardship but can work they should be a temporary relief but it should always be more beneficial to be in work than on benefits.

Posts on here dispute suggestions about how higher earners would turn down a promotion if they had to pay more tax because they are still better off but at the other end you see posters saying don't bother going to work if you are only a few hundred pounds better off as it isn't worth it or if you will lose the benefits whats the point in taking a job for the same 'income'.

@CustardOmlet Again, you're giving everyone a free pass based on some genuinely needy people, and not acknowledging the fact that there are people who get themselves into shit situations. So apparently I don't care about the genuinely vulnerable because I am pointing out not everyone is needy, and some personal accountability wouldn't go amiss? YOU don't know anything about me, yet you're quick to cast aspersions on my moral character and claim I don't care about people who are actually suffering. I can care about people and also criticise individual cases of bone idleness/ lack of willingness to put ducks in a row before reproducing. Two things can be true at the same

@Apileofballyhoo the money goes into the hands of landlords and big businesses? I really hate this argument, it's such pre school economics. The landlord doesn't just sit on his cash stuffed mattress, he pays the bank back the mortgage they gave him, with interest. The bank will then lend out the money it has to new businesses etc or in other loans, with interest. The companies are then invested in by pension funds, in the hope of a decent return, which then pays out the pensioners (hopefully) and other savers.

I think it's only very sheltered people who think 'landlords and big businesses' just sit on piles of cash, Scrooge McDuck style. Money lubricates the entire system and allows for loans, new businesses growth and investment.

No all Tory voters on here, but a lot of those that have commented don’t appreciate this.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=4K5fbQ1-zps

It’s still the I’m alright jack mentality. That’s what I dislike. Also I do think that something needs to be done re tax arrangements for large businesses eg amazon who earn a fuck load of money from the UK and pay minimal taxes

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2019/09/03/amazons-uk-tax-bill-rises-just-10m-despite-358m-jump-revenues/amp/

economia.icaew.com/news/september-2019/amazon-paid-220m-tax-on-109bn-uk-revenues

and don’t have good working conditions. They have recently raised their minimum wage but only after widespread striking and they have also removed some other staff benefits in order to pay the higher min wage.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/this-what-its-like-to-work-in-amazon-warehouse/

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/money/2019/apr/14/amazon-fines-depot-workers-driver

Amazon workers across Europe and US are having to fight for decent working conditions, when the company is raking in huge profits. This is the sort of inequality I want to see an end to.

This is why the bleeding hearts will continue to lose. Because they just refuse to understand the 'you are a bad person' argument just doesn't fly anymore.

@CustardOmlet turn your point around:
How do you know that those people who do make responsible choices arent battling challenges such as poor mental health, a disadvantaged background or a personal tragedy?

There’s a saying isn’t there, ‘everyone you meet today is fighting a battle you know nothing about’

Why the assumption that someone who’s made poor life choices must be doing it because of some inevitable circumstances whereas someone who has made responsible choices must be doing it because of some inherent advantage??

@virginpinkmartini you didn't actually take a pay cut though did you? You said it would lead to you being in 'roughly the same.' Come back to me when you willingly bring home £300 less per month.
I won't rely on tax credits forever as I only get the childcare element so when my ds is in school I won't be 'reliant on the state' anymore. I find your demonising of anyone on benefits very concerning. Do you feel similarly about Amazon or Caffè Nero?
There was a great quote on here about 'how those that earn £100 per hour make those earning £12 per hour think that those earning £8 per hour are the problem.' I think you fit that description.

What do you think about people with drug dependency virgin? I’m pretty sure they won’t suddenly start a successful career if you remove their benefits but their problems are basically self inflicted. Do their children deserve to live in abject poverty because of the choices of their parents? How would you help them?

Not saying that your views are wrong just pointing out that there are a lot of complex situations out there. I worry that if we let kids suffer because of the choices their parents have made then the cycle continues and you end up with an underclass.

@PigeonofDoom this is what social services are for. If the parent cannot adequately care for their children those children should at least be given a chance to flourish with new foster or adopted family. Again, paid for by the state.

Most drugs people get hooked on are illegal. Other than making it against the laws of a country and an arrestable offence, how much more do you think the government can do to stop this? They can't, it's personal choices again. And the government funds lots of recovery programs to wean people off drugs, again they need to CHOOSE to go.

The thing that scares me about socialism is that when you remove choice you replace it with coercion. Hello 1984.

I agree but that’s not what happens in reality. Also, the pastoral care that schools use to support kids that need access to social services has been lost due to cuts in education. Eg school nurses- gone in most schools or shared between multiple large sites.