To ask about the fundamental Tory belief?

[Beadyohfeedme]

So I've argued with quite a few people today about this issue, not on MN but in RL and on other forums. Most tories I know seem to share this belief that we are all responsible for our own fortune, or lack of it.
So that's the underlying reason that they are against higher taxes ('I've worked hard so why should I pay for those who haven't.')

So how does one do this? Are you honestly saying that everyone can become successful?

You cannot push out a litter of children and expect the tax payer to pick up the bill. For every unemployed family of 8 on benefits that refuse to stop breeding, that money could be better spent on an additional nurse for the NHS or the money could be redirected to someone in genuine need ie disabled

Could you ignore a child in poverty because of the actions of their parents?

You can't really have a single fundamental Tory belief because most of the variation in the political spectrum is represented among the Conservative and Unionist voter base, and that has been the case for a long time.

I’m in the top 5% and would never vote Tory. I’m ashamed of how our country has voted.

or the money could be redirected to someone in genuine need ie disabled.
The money isn’t redirected to help disabled people though is it!

I think you're trying to start some sort of discussion but unfortunately for you no one believes tories all think like this. And try to remember the millions of new tories from historical labour heartlands.

So all a bit silly really.

@Bluntness100 that's what I'm baffled by. Someone in Darlington or Bolton NE really thinks Boris cares about them? I'm struggling to understand it.

And try to remember the millions of new tories from historical labour heartlands.

Yeah that keeps getting forgotten in the different slant on the old trope that Tories are just selfish.

It will take a while for some to have some self reflection as to why Labour has had the worst defeat in living memory, in the mean time it is everyone else who is wrong.

It would be funny if it wasn't so childish.

Who are these scroungers?

How often do you see on here someone who doesn’t want to work an extra hour because they would only get 33p out of each extra pound for a while because they don’t get the same amount of top ups if they earn more. These people are literally handed the opportunity on a plate to make a better financial decision for the country and reducing the welfare bill vs generating more taxable income but they choose not to.

I don't think there are millions of new Tory voters in the Labour heartlands as less people voting Labour and more people voting Brexit.

A good strategy. Look at Penistone and Stocksbridge - actual numbers. Not many more for the Conservative but far lower for Labour.

Someone in Darlington or Bolton NE really thinks Boris cares about them? I'm struggling to understand it.

Why wouldn't he? They've turned swathes of the North blue. Boris is going to be falling over himself to make them glad they did so.

Why would the red fella in Islington care more?

Yeah that old trope is just one aspect of the contempt Labour has demonstrated for people and democracy.

I am proud that people from every possible walk of life came out to save our country from several problems.

It goes to show that when the chips are down people rally together to do the right thing, even if they have to get their hands dirty to do it, even if it might involve personal sacrifice.

This restores faith in humanity.

@lampygirl are you saying you are so noble you would earn less money just so you could say you earned it rather than claimed it? I was in this very same predictment where taking a promotion would mean I lost £500 per month in tax credits. I turned it down. Are you saying I should have just plunged myself further into poverty for the sake of some Tory respect? Does that make a scrounger?
As a working person who's a minimum wage admin in the nhs I don't feel like I'm scrounging anything. Surely the problem is with the system (which was changed by the tories.)

It's more complicated than that. I vote labour and I'm a high earner - 70k. Yes I work hard but no harder than people who earn less. I think it's a philosophical view of looking at the world.

Why wouldn't he? They've turned swathes of the North blue. Boris is going to be falling over himself to make them glad they did so

Well - I hope so. I hope those voters get what they are looking for from Brexit, that they get investment in local hospitals, decent funding for schools, good housing, infrastructure, GPs and a sense of being listened to. I live reasonably close to those Red wall areas and now what they are like after decades of being left behind.

I really hope that they do get something from the Conservative Government and Brexit.

churchandstate why don't we put MPs in something like a military officer's mess in London, and save paying housing allowance and all the related costs?)
Because most MPs are adults with families, not students

So, believe it or not, are military officers, especially senior ones who are posted away from their homes and families during the week. They live in the mess (and pay for the privilege as well out of taxed income). We did it for four years on the trot, whilst paying a mortgage on our home, and dh came home at weekends. If the military are expected to do it, why not the MPs? They are public servants as well after all.

It's about spending other people's money wisely and being seen to do so. Bubble says it better than me upthread.

Most tories I know seem to share this belief that we are all responsible for our own fortune, or lack of it.
So that's the underlying reason that they are against higher taxes ('I've worked hard so why should I pay for those who haven't.')

You know different Tories to me then. My lot are Ok with higher taxes well spent. Higher taxes for free broadband, no, not up for that. Higher taxes for reorganising schools again, no. More money for schools then leaving them mostly alone, yes, go for it. More money for social care instead of dumping the old in A&E yes. See?

I don't think you really did speak to any actual Tory voters, or if you did, you only picked up on things that matched your own preconceptions of what Tories are like.

So, believe it or not, are military officers, especially senior ones who are posted away from their homes and families during the week. They live in the mess (and pay for the privilege as well out of taxed income). We did it for four years on the trot, whilst paying a mortgage on our home, and dh came home at weekends. If the military are expected to do it, why not the MPs? They are public servants as well after all.

Because you sign up to the Army on the understanding that you will live like that. It’s not the culture for MPs and you would struggle - in my opinion - to attract people to do the job with the sort of experience you need. 🤷🏻‍♀️

‘I think most people want the same things, a safe, stable country with good schooling, healthcare and infastructure.‘

Is this actually true? As long as they had decent private healthcare for themselves and decent schooling for their own kids, would most people actually care that much what kind of healthcare and schooling the poor got?

@FGSJoanWhatsWrongWithYou there are literally people on this thread who are saying the same thing.

How often do you see on here someone who doesn’t want to work an extra hour because they would only get 33p out of each extra pound for a while because they don’t get the same amount of top ups if they earn more. These people are literally handed the opportunity on a plate to make a better financial decision for the country and reducing the welfare bill vs generating more taxable income but they choose not to

Exactly or turn down extra hours/ responsibility as they don’t want to lose their claim on benefits.. Or decide to be a SAHP as it suit them better, work just so teen hours as they don’t need to work more when others will top up etc.

I’d be ashamed if I could work/earn more but didn’t as others were paying instead. The welfare system was meant to catch people as a safety not be a lifestyle choice.

Are the Tories not going to put up taxes? How are they going to pay for their manifesto pledges and Brexit?

it's a tough one to answer, obviously do things for a complex patchwork of reasons. very roughly, equal sized groups:

Correctly assume that it's in their short term economic interests, a lower tax burden outweighing any loss in public services;

Incorrectly [because they've not done the maths/aren't well informed enough] assume that it's in their short term economic interests, a lower tax burden outweighing any loss in public services;

Interested in the sort of 'social' side of conservatism, i.e. things staying the same, traditional values etc, this motive ranging from the benign [e.g. christians] to the downright rotten [racists]

Ideologically opposed to 'large state' etc, feel this is fundamentally unfair.

Buy into 'tough guy' rhetoric & ideals about law & order etc.

Do it for vague instinctive reasons because it's what their parents did.

Buy into specific lies/scare stories about the opposition.

@IceCreamAndCandyfloss so you would take a pay cut to be more noble would you? Please see my experience earlier.

I’m not a Tory but often vote for them. I believe that we all have an obligation to take completely responsibility (not only financially) for ourselves. I can understand why people who come from a disadvantaged background and haven’t received a proper education and are fighting against the class system don’t see that and I think the government should support them without punishing them (by providing means tested state services and a zero rate taxation for lower earners). But I think that people who come from incredibly privileged backgrounds who fail to do so are just shit people.

You cannot push out a litter of children and expect the tax payer to pick up the bill. For every unemployed family of 8 on benefits that refuse to stop breeding, that money could be better spent on an additional nurse for the NHS or the money could be redirected to someone in genuine need ie disabled

Whilst I also disagree with the idea of having kids just for the benefit money, I genuinely don't think this is a typical example of a person (let's face it, woman) who claims. I grew up on a council estate, I now live in an area where there is a large council estate and most of the people I've known are either one/both working for very little and relying on benefits as a top up, or are single mothers being punished by the system as they cannot win in terms of coming off benefits/finding work/getting childcare. Most didn't start off in a situation where they thought they'd be a single and jobless parent. All of them wish they didn't have to claim but it's getting more and more impossible to get out of the vortex of Universal Credit, especially if you've taken out a loan with them, or get a dreaded 'we've overpaid your tax credits' letter.

I don't think people appreciate that once you've hit 'the bottom' these days that it's so so bloody difficult to get out of it. It's not simply a case of 'well just get a job' or 'take in some ironing' (that phrase on here doesn't have make me furious). It's having a much larger knock on effect as well, kids are feeling the poverty so much more and can't see their parents managing to work their way out of it. I fear this effect will see a huge rise in crime in a few years time, as those young kids become more desperate young adults. Which will then knock on to yet more generations. It used to be that most general working families would have a bad month/year but eventually pick themselves up again. Now one bad month can completely wipe you for years. Even if it's not your job, there's the everlasting threat that you will lose the roof over your head, or that one bad bill will mean a trip to the food bank.

I'd also like to know how those talking here about those on benefits not helping themselves and expecting the state to make up the gap, what about the massive corporations that find ways of not paying the full tax on their companies? Considering they are taking millions from the country, how is it that we are continuously pointing the finger down at those who take from the state, when we should also be pointing the finger up? When will the Tories actually focus on this huge issue?

So yes, people need to have some self reliance but it's not so easy to do so when it feels your pulling yourself up a cliff and theres a person above you throwing rocks and calling you a scrounger.