To ask about the fundamental Tory belief?

[Beadyohfeedme]

So I've argued with quite a few people today about this issue, not on MN but in RL and on other forums. Most tories I know seem to share this belief that we are all responsible for our own fortune, or lack of it.
So that's the underlying reason that they are against higher taxes ('I've worked hard so why should I pay for those who haven't.')

So how does one do this? Are you honestly saying that everyone can become successful?

Yes, you’re agreeing with what I’ve already mentioned in pp- NMW should be raised. People should be better off working. Working longer hours in more challenging roles with more responsibility should pay better than working fewer hours in a less challenging role.

I don’t believe people are able to live a particularly comfortable life on benefits. That’s a myth. The problem is, they don’t get a significantly more comfortable life by working, particularly if it’s in a NMW job, particularly if they have high rent and childcare to pay, particularly if they lose ‘fringe benefits’ such as free prescriptions, travel pass etc

That’s the real issue.

Just using these numbers as examples, but if say, someone gets £150 on benefits, it’s not much of an incentive to get £200 when that involves getting up early, commuting, spending nearly 40 hours of your week doing something that you might not particularly like. Make the differential greater and you incentivise people. And for someone who maybe doesn’t have many qualifications or skills and hasn’t worked for a while, the reality is that they probably will be looking at NMW fairly mundane jobs, because that’s the first rung of the ladder.
When you have experience, skills, professional training, the chances are you’re going to be in work where the other benefits of working are more evident- job satisfaction, intellectual challenge etc. In a menial job, money is inevitably going to be the main motivator. That’s why a decent financial incentive is needed to get people on that first step.

In the end “Toryism” is practical and can adapt. On the whole, yes, Tories want smaller government and lower taxes. A lot of things are done better by the private sector than the state - broadband, for example.

And tax revenues should be spent well not squandered - and efficient NHS would be better than the nightmare we have with bloated management.

Tories don’t believe in legalised theft - hiking taxes for no reason. Too much taxation tends to mean the higher earners stop working and that is bad for everyone.

I work in housing and see the good and bad of benefits every day. Plenty of people perfectly capable of contributing who don’t see why they should and who will do anything to get out of doing so. Plenty of people in genuinely shit situations who struggle just coping with everyday life.

I had a horrendous childhood with an alcoholic mother and fought like hell to get out of my situation by getting to uni and away from my home life but you would never know this about me and I would never tell you. My brother moved to the city with no money or family support at 18 to get away from our area and is also now doing well.

Not everyone on benefits is a saint fallen on hard times and not every person in a decent position came from a privileged upbringing. People are way more complicated.

More money for social care instead of dumping the old in A&E yes.

The Tories didn't have/don't have a plan for social care so im not sure where you got this from.

@Beadyohfeedme Yes, it is a pay cut actually. By my calculations Ill probably be down up to 100 a month, to roughly the same. Also I will be working harder with more responsibilities, which means the value of what I'm doing goes up but I'm not financially benefitting. Meaning I am essentially taking a 'loss'. Shift the goalposts all you want, the message is the same.

Best post on this thread is from @hiddenmnetter**

Only if you agree with it. I think it’s pseudo intellectual Tory bollocks.

I guess some people will always find ‘fuck you cunt’ the ‘better’ argument than reason

I also think that hiddenmnetter's post is, by far, the best I have seen not only on this thread but for a long while.

I think it’s pseudo intellectual Tory bollocks.

Oh ouch

You may disagree, but the question is what are the fundamental beliefs; I think that's what Tory's believe. If you think they believe something else then by all means suggest, but I have put forward what I think is at least a reasonable account of principles even if you disagree with them. The specifics consequences and interpretation of those principles can obviously be debated ad nauseum.

However if you were to boil it down to what the biggest difference between the left and the right is, I would say it comes down to a belief in what the state can achieve. Generally the right is suspicious of state influence and efficiency, whereas the left is generally in favour of state management and influence.

I don’t think there’s one version of what Tories believe. There’s a whole spectrum of belief, I think yours is pretty far to the right @hiddenmnetter. My husband’s a lifelong Tory voter (spoilt his paper on Thursday because he’s also a remainer) and he’s just laughed at your essay.

My objection to it is that it completely denies any notion of social responsibility and puts money before people.

Glad I've caused someone to laugh! I don't think I've denied social responsibly at all. I don't even think I'm that far to the right. I'm not a libertarian by any stretch. I don't believe that all taxation is theft, but I do think that people's money is their own before it is the states, and that the state has to have a very clear purpose and method for taking money of people, to spend in what is invariably a more inefficient and less targeted way than people can spend for themselves.

But fair enough, if your DH is a lifelong Tory voter then what does he view the fundamental principles of being a Tory as?

Hurrah for @Dragongirl10 for possibly the most sensible post I’ve read on MN for days now -
*I think most people want the same things, a safe, stable country with good schooling, healthcare and infastructure.

The differences occur in how to achieve this.*

Just so. The hysterical mud slinging really has to stop.

if your DH is a lifelong Tory voter then what does he view the fundamental principles of being a Tory as?

Law and order, fair (not minimal) taxation, social responsibility. He was particularly amused by the concept that he can spend his money better than the government can as he’s a self confessed spendthrift. It’s down to me - the apparently feckless socialist - that we have any savings.

‘I think it’s pseudo intellectual Tory bollocks‘ is a cheap throwaway line that anyone could say about anything. Just insert any political party.

It’s used when people can’t actually disagree with someone in a reasonable, rational way.

Law and order is hardly something the left doesn't believe in? I've not seen (except in the case of some truly corrupt unions in other countries) the left ever really saying they don't like law and order.

And I don't think I've ever met someone on the left who also didn't believe in social responsibility?

And fair taxation? I don't think I've met anyone on the left who advocates for unfair taxation?

These are hardly principles of Toryism or of anything. They are things I think everyone aims for, the question is what principle guides achieving those things? You've just listed a series of social goods that really everyone wants. You might as well have said being a Tory is about being happy. Well, yes, it is, in the same unlimited sense that being a human is about being happy. But so is being a labour voter. And literally every other person ever. It is good to know, but hardly informative or useful in this context.

Also your husband being a spendthrift ignores the fact that he can still purchase for himself what he wants more effectively than the state can, because he knows what he wants. For the state to purchase for him the same would cost a great deal more, because they have to pay someone to find out about his preferences, pay someone else to take his money off him, pay someone else to go and buy whatever he wants, and someone else to get it to him. I suppose they could pay just 1 person to do all 4 jobs, but then I suppose that might as well be you getting him Christmas presents. At least the state wouldn't have to pay then. But oh shit, now we've cut out the state it's more efficient again. I suppose we could have the state take his money via taxation, then give you a DH Christmas present tax rebate. But given as there is a cost involved in collecting taxes, it's still not going to be as efficient.

The very nature of a state apparatus is less efficient than people spending their own money. I was suggesting that it is a Tory principle that takes this (well accepted idea) and uses it to critique policy in line with a general mistrust of state overreach.

I was suggesting that it is a Tory principle that takes this (well accepted idea) and uses it to critique policy in line with a general mistrust of state overreach

I should add that this looks different in different countries though. I think the British generally have a more trusting approach to the state than I have noticed in my experience of living in Australia, for example.

Brilliant post by @hiddenmnetter

With a very strong economy everyone benefits. If it means the highest earners are earning more that is part of it. It not not communism, therefore everyone will never earn the same, but by having capitalist motivation, some will strive, (and some will benefit from luck too) and earn increasing amounts, the trickle down increases the amount in the economy overall, meaning money is available for all. This is a natural re distribution of income.
Whilst high and very high earners may gross much more, it must be taken into account the increasing levels if tax they do contribute with this. Taxes are much more than would be apparent for high earners at first glance, between 50k and 60k child benefit is lost and free nursery hours start to be lost as means testing takes place , over 100k your personal allowance is lost and your tax rate is 40% ( you are paying this on all your income not ust the amount above the personal allowance), if you are self employed you are paying 9% NI on top of your tax and if your business happens to be vat registered there is an additional tax of 16.66% on all you income.

Whilst you may be aiming to earn big, it cannot be by any means suggested there is no benefit to the whole of society. In fact economically a model where high taxation rates are put in place reduces tax take as people are disincetivised to work. There has to be a balance between keeping a reasonable proportion of what you earn to make it worthwhile but still contributing enough to make a balanced society.
I do not know a single conservative voter who wants to "get rich" at the expense of or "regardless of" other people . I do know people who are deeply)) concerned the economy is properly handled, in a realistic way. It all very well to make offers of wonder but if they arent realistic or only cause further financial problems further down the line it is futile. A controlled, stable economy which avoids the need to swing from one crisis to the next to repair previous debts is something conservatives I know do want. Stability is the only way to have a safe platform to strongly build on. Building leads to more, to bigger and to better more profitable businesses, to more employment, to more income, to a stronger economy ;more money for everyone (of course some more than others), more money to invest in public services etc.

It’s used when people can’t actually disagree with someone in a reasonable, rational way

It’s a succinct summary when you have neither the time nor the inclination to pick an essay apart point by point.

And probably spend too much time on Twitter 😉

Look @hiddenmnetter, you asked me a question, I passed it on and repeated the answer for you. I’m neither your or my husband’s secretary so I’m not going to be the mediator in an argument you appear to have with him.

You're the one who accused me of pseudo intellectual Tory bollocks..

Yes, I said that’s what I think about your post. It’s not an accusation, it’s an opinion. And I still think it.

Yes it’s a crass ‘opinion’ because it’s a throwaway comment. A cheap shot. If you disagree with someone well reasoned rational argument then at least show the ability to explain why. Clearly you can’t.

@Dragongirl10 I can’t believe nobody has picked you up on this:
Successful people who already pay between 25 % and 45% of their income
Nobody pays between 25% and 45% of their income in tax. They pay nothing on the first £12500 (unless they earn over £100k, where it reduces by £1 for every £2 over the £10k until it reaches zero at £125k), then 20% on income between the allowance and £37.5k, 40% on earnings between £37.5k and £150k and 45% on income over £150k.

Reduces by £1 for every £2 over 100k I mean obviously.