Will the UK now accept the vote

[Gin96]

And move on with a united country, can we stop bickering and accept what people have voted for?

FPTP is a flawed system, but then proportional representation would lead to delights such as the death penalty being reintroduced
Please explain that conceptual leap .....

I agree Whizbang comparing it with other elections it is equilvalent to Margaret Thatcher very similar to the 1983 election (indeed the map is spookily similar) although weirdly Labour wanted to leave the then EEC. Michael Foot was indeed as unpopular a leader as Jeremy Corbyn

But the FTTP system has a lot to answer for, as does a split vote between Labour and Lib Dem - how much the lack of a Brexit/UKIP party standing or indeed being needed would be interesting. With the right wing vote no longer split how many seats did they gain simply due to a Lib Dem/Labour vote being split?

Coupled with long term Labour voters feeling unable to vote due to JC/momentum/a frankly bizarre attitude towards Brexit. The Conservative Party won not because they were the best option but for many they were simply the least worst. And because now really we have no choice but to Brexit (something personally I think must be scaring the living daylights out of Boris now he has nothing to hide behind and he has to face up to what it could potentially mean). And the knowledge that played incorrectly he could be the man who takes the Conservatives down. Of course he could play it well....

Either way the sad truth is that those who will suffer are those who put their faith in him

Either way the sad truth is that those who will suffer are those who put their faith in him

Spot on.

Whizbang name me one country in Western Europe which has PR and has reintroduced the death penalty?

PR means every vote really does count. PR means new parties are set up, find a following and get seats in parliament according to their popularity. Yes, PR means that extreme parties get seats in parliament - but they nearly always show themselves up as incompetent one-trick ponies once there, and then they wither. The Netherlands is a prime example of this phenomenon with the Centrum Partij, followed by Geert Wilders' PVV and now the Forum voor Democratie, which is currently exploding itself quite nicely.

Most of all it's democracy in its truest form, because every vote matters equally instead of some votes in some areas not mattering at all.

I accept that the Tories won the election, and the leave vote won the referendum.
However i was surrounded by a lot of angry and depressed people yesterday, at home and at work.
If what they and i predict happens, we will be even angrier, as will millions of others.. because we will be dragged through the shit too!
Lets see what unfolds..

Quartz- exactly. Collectively our politicians are an absolute shambles and most voters will have chosen on a least worst basis. How did it come to this?

It has lead us down a dangerous path where too much power vests on the right with no effectual opposition. But what other option did the voters have? Entitled buffoons without a shred of compassion on the one hand, virtue signalling Marxist nincompoops on the other. Devil and the deep blue sea.

Which is why I held my nose and voted con on economic grounds as I explained above. I am furious it has come to this. Corbyn and his cabal plus momentum have ruined the Labour Party with their identity politics, economic ignorance and abject failure to pay any attention whatsoever to the voices of their core foundation supporters in the north. They were all ignorant bigots who did not deserve to be listened to apparently.

The only silver lining I can spot is if labour can take this as a wake up call, kick out momentum et al and recreate a credible party to fight the injustices that are now prevailing. Split the party if necessary. Corbyn, McConnell and momentum can be left to debate ridiculous hard left policies plus Palestine amongst themselves, while the Labour Party that previously won 3 elections reassembles itself under a credible leader with realistic policies. I can but hope. In the meantime I lay responsibility for the humiliating general election defeat firmly at the door of Corbyn and Momentum for destroying Labour and its voter base in order to pursue their own selfish narrow agendas and lust for power. My god they have a lot to answer for.

The downside of PR is that it can let in extremists- we would have had a lot of Brexit MPs at the last election. And we would have to change our system of constituency representation.

Yep PR doesn’t work well either. That was the point I was clumsily making citing the death penalty that others have rightly picked me up on above - it opens the door to more extreme views. UKIP and worse. As do referendums incidentally, Brexit being a classic example

Nevermind the electoral system, if you are in the EU, or applying to join, you cannot have capital punishment. Our not being in the EU might well release the brake on things like that, and human rights as we currently protect them generally. With such a hard right government, and Priti Patel in the Home Office, that makes me uneasy.

Agh, sorry I raised the death penalty, it was a bad example and a red herring. I don’t think U.K. would ever except it’s reintroduction no matter how rabid our politicians might be!

The downside of PR is that it can let in extremists- we would have had a lot of Brexit MPs at the last election.
But you are assuming that people would have voted the same way under PR as they did under FPTP

With PR there are no "protest votes"

PR seems to work quite well in the Scottish Parliament
and it works just fine in the EU elections

name me a country with a PR system anywhere in the world that has voted for the death penalty to be introduced?

I can’t Listening, it was a bad example and I shouldn’t have raised it. You’re right.

I’m still cross with Corbyn though!
I’m off out now, but thanks to those who have debated with me over the last few pages and have made some good points. Food for thought

But do you accept that PR does NOT lead to the fractured left / right politics that FPTP has brought to the UK and the USA ?

If the UK had PR,
the ERG could have split off into a small party and had some representation but not dragged half the country with them

Momentum could have split off into a small party and had some representation

and millions of people could have voted with their hearts
rather than for the party they loathed the least

Oh, Corbyn blew it, all right. Mainly by being vague and shifty about Brexit, and vague and shifty about tackling anti-semitism in his party. FWIW I think that part of his problem is that he is the sort of person who really wants to see the good in everyone, and that doesn't always work too well.
But let's not forget the relentless campaigns waged against him by the majority of the UK media (all owned, in case you've forgotten, by tax-dodging non-dom billionaires). And the fact that 88% of the Tories' ad campaigns were found to be misleading if not outright dishonest, while none of Labour's were.

But there really are no sunlit uplands ahead. Because as well as being a ruthless, entitled, ego-tripping, self-seeking liar, Fucko the Clown is incompetent. And his core advisers are themselves so comfortable, and so cushioned from the effects of anything they might do, that their approach is 'Whee, this will be amusing, let's see if we can talk the proles into actually eating one another.'

Perhaps you’re right Listening. FPTP doesn’t work that’s for sure and we need a better system. But if we’d had PR during the 2017 election we would have had a healthy UKIP contingent in the House of Commons which is also to be avoided.

Sigh, something has to change but I can’t see any incentive for the ruling conservatives to address it given their large majority. And so the depressing circle continues.

On that happy note , I really do have to go get ready or I’ll be in trouble IRL. Have a good evening everyone. FWIW I don’t think anyone is an arsehole for voting in line with their beliefs, and am grateful to live in a democracy where we are free to debate and vote with our conscience, even though our FPTP system is crap. That is a luxury that has been hard won and is not enjoyed by millions across the planet.

Have a good evening y’all.

Here is how Parliament might look had we PR. twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1205803649265537024

But if we’d had PR during the 2017 election we would have had a healthy UKIP contingent in the House of Commons which is also to be avoided.
No, no, no
Do NOT assume that people would vote the same way if they knew that every vote counted

midsomer
Again where those maps go wrong .....
I would NOT have voted the way I did on Thursday if there had been PR
nor would millions and millions of other people

Wow. So not quite the overwhelming majority for brexit or for conservatives. This gives me back a little faith in the country. Thank you.

I like this thread although I am now beyond the point where I can possibly make it out in time! Healthy informative debate without descending into mudslinging. Hats off to those contributing.

Swirls, don’t interpret it as a massive conservative victory. People didn’t vote for cons because they particularly like them or agree, they voted to keep Corbyn out. It is in fact a massive labour failure and unfortunately cons are the beneficiaries.

Listening, you make an excellent point about how voting intentions would change under a PR system. I’m gonna give it some more thought as a result. Thanks.

ListeningQuietly
That's a valid point on how people night vote differently under PR.

I do think we'd have a better parliament if we had PR. There'd be more coalitions across parties having to find common ground and get past playing to the extremes in their parties.
At the moment I find that the Tories have been increasingly pandering to their right wing Eurosceptic side, and Labour seem to be pandering to the Momentum far left side.

Yes- I’m going to do some more thinking about people’s voting patterns under FPTP and PR. I think I have always assumed that first choices won’t change and it’s just allowing people to rate their least worst options. But maybe that’s my tribalism showing.

Bertrand
I think I have always assumed that first choices won’t change
Things that would change if we had PR ....
the dysfunctional broad church parties could split
they would come together for some topics but not for others

topical parties like the Greens would not have to find 650 x £500 to try to get a voice in the country .... so quieter voices would be heard

protest votes would cease - because every vote everywhere would count

parties could split but still have a voice in the decision making

Only the UK and the USA still have pure winner takes all politics
and look where its getting us

binary choices are bad
electoral reform in the UK would be a good thing

I would definitely have voted differently under PR. I voted Labour as it was the only possibility of ousting our current Tory MP. I voted for a party that I didn't really want, in the hopes of undermining a party that I really didn't want. But with PR I would have voted Lib Dem. I think a lot more people would vote Lib Dem or Green with a PR system because currently in most constituencies there is no hope of candidates from those parties being elected so it feels like a wasted vote, particularly if you are strongly against either Labour or Conservatives.