AIBU why do women have more than 2 children

[Gin96]

2 children, Now we have the benifit cap? I see so many women struggling after having baby number 3 after the cut off date in 2017. I don’t agree with the cap but it is what it is. Men should pay towards their children but i’m afraid a lot don’t and it’s left on the shoulders of women. Why do women put themselves in this vulnerable position?

andpancakesforbreakfast you say you and your husband are not on great wages - do you accept child benefit or do you or did you accept any kind of working tax credit or help with childcare costs? If you do, you know the saying about people in glass houses...

Ah sorry, it's Rain who was backing you up saying she was on a low wage, not you andpancakesforbreakfast - perhaps you are on a higher income have never accepted any benefits including child benefit.

So many people here who really think poor children deserve nothing but the bare bare minimum if that for having the audacity to be born into a poor family.
Can I reccomend rereading A Christmas Carol and having a good think.
Tis the season, after all.

I want a third child. Can I afford it? Probably not. So will I have it? Most likely not because that's the sensible thing to do, so OP I see where you're coming from.

So many people here who really think poor children deserve nothing but the bare bare minimum if that for having the audacity to be born into a poor family.

that's not the point at all, the point is that PARENTS shouldn't bring children to the world when they cannot afford them and give them at the very least a bit more than the basic. It's irresponsible parents who are to blame, not the tax payer.

`and not everyone has the choice to "accept" benefits

@andpancakesforbreakfast
If you're still stuck on 'but parents shouldn't do that', you're a bit behind. They're going to. That's the world we live in, and the only way to punish those parents would be to punish the children.
The best we can do for those children is to support them and try and increase social mobility so that they can do better for themselves.
I should know. I was bought up on benefits, and now I'm an employed taxpayer just like the rest of my siblings. Yes siblings multiple.

We've got three children. Both work and are not on benefits.

We aren't rich either but do lots of 'leisure activities' which are free (junior parkrun, forest school, parks, museums etc etc), not every hobby costs money. There is a lot of grey area between rich and poor and most people with any amount of children fall somewhere between the two.

of course it is, and you are welcome to do like the rest of us and work to pay for that... How do you think most people manage?

Why do you presume neither DH or I work? DH works full time, earns above the national average, and I'm a SAHM as we have two children with additional needs as well as two NT children.

However I am able to empathise with people in poverty, including children, as I don't have the emotional depth of a teaspoon.

Unlike some.

If you're still stuck on 'but parents shouldn't do that', you're a bit behind. They're going to.

they are going to because they know they have a big safety net, that's the whole point. Get rid of the safety net, people will stop being so entitled. It's the only way to improve the system.

Venger
I am allowed to empathise and help people who really NEED it, and to judge those who waste resources and basically steal them from those who actually need them.

they are going to because they know they have a big safety net, that's the whole point. Get rid of the safety net, people will stop being so entitled. It's the only way to improve the system
Yes of course then we can go back to take babies from unmarried mothers to ship them off, do you think those without education or life skills will suddenly become self sufficient?
@andpancakesforbreakfast what if you lost your job?

Get rid of the safety net, people will stop being so entitled

Yeah, because fuck vulnerable people, right? People wouldn't dare let themselves be made redundant, divorce, or become unwell or disabled if there was no help for them. Those problems would simply cease to exist.

I am allowed to empathise and help people who really NEED it

Who are you to decide?

judge those who waste resources and basically steal them from those who actually need them.

I can't even be bothered to debate this with someone who equates benefit claimants with thieves.

I hope you are never in need. I hope you are never sick or incapacitated, made redundant, divorced or widowed, that your children are always healthy, and that you are never in need of the type of support currently given to these people you hold in such contempt. But if the opposite is ever true and you do need support, I hope you are given more compassion than you yourself appear capable of displaying.

@andpancakesforbreakfast
And how do you propose to get rid of the safety net without harming vulnerable children?
You cant, which is why you cut off the rest of my point.
I believe in a civilised society we all deserve that safety net. I'm very sorry that you don't.

Interestingly most countries with birth rates as low as the UK's are offering incentives for having more children at the same time the UK is disincentivising having children ... It's an interesting economic strategy in a country with a seriously aging population and a birth rate well below the rate of replacement.

again, it's not a safety net when it's a lifestyle choice!

Either choosing to work less, or not work at all is a choice FOR EXAMPLE.

Of course I have been made redundant and struggled like everybody else has. But when you are looking for solution rather than an easy handout, you find them, that's the whole point.

Emeraldshamrock
If I lose my job?

So far, I have.. found another one.
It has meant accepting crap jobs until I found better, it has meant moving and relocating, it has meant working hard to go back on my feet. Why do you as?

Yes, and when you're looking for poor people to scapegoat, there will always be someone you deem undeserving.
The poor do not cost you more than the tax dodging rich. They just don't. The fact that people are more angry at those with less than those with more than they will ever need is just sad.

who's angry? Not me, just replying to the thread.

I am also 100% against inheritance tax, for the simple reason that it's not fair - and that the truly rich don't pay it as they put all their assets in trusts and others that don't get penalised....

I am all for justice and things being fair. So far, they are the opposite of fair, it's high time to change the sytem

@andpancakesforbreakfast
I just dont understand the attitude of wanting to punish EVERYONE on benefits because SOME of them make bad choices.
These people have little enough already. The use of food banks has skyrocketed. What more can you take away from them?

andpancakesforbreakfast why do you think you get to choose what the point is? Child poverty seems a far more relevant point than you stamping your foot because it isn't fair and in your opinion putting children into poverty is not the point , the main, big, important point is apparently that life must be fair to andpancakesforbreakfast . Children in poverty are acceptable collateral damage in the important mission to rebalance society in the way andpancakesforbreakfast feels will be fair to people like andpancakesforbreakfast and punish any adults who may have received anything andpancakesforbreakfast feels is unfair...

Is that about it? Child poverty = not the point

Nobody getting anything andpancakesforbreakfast doesn't get because it's not fair = the point?

and that the truly rich don't pay it as they put all their assets in trusts and others that don't get penalised a bit out of date there

It’s not about punishment though, it’s about having to put measurements in place to ensure people don’t have children they can’t afford,

Plenty of people who don’t claim have to limit their families to what there finances will cover, it’s no different.

As a parent I would do any job to put food on the table and a roof over their heads. The responsibility for children lies with us as parents.

Okay. HOW do you make sure people dont have more kids tha they should without taking away money (kids go without) or... I dont know, sterilising the poor?
It's not possible.
This constant cry of it not being fair. Life is not fair. Growing up on benefits is pretty shit. The best thing to do is get these kids educated so they can do better for themselves.

On a population level the most reliable way to stop poorer women having a large number of children (on average) is to ensure they are given every educational opportunity to reach their educational potential and that there are good, well paid jobs for them...

That's how it works on a national level generally.

The very, very poor in every society throughout history have always had a lot of children. Make things bad enough, remove the "safety net" of a social state, and they have more because so many die...

You can't punish or fine people out of having children, it doesn't work and it's pretty unethical and socially and economically counterproductive for society as a whole because children who grow up in very deprived conditions cost society more in the long run.

I have 4 children, I can't say I entirely planned it that way , we've never relied on benefits, we both have careers. I don't consider myself vulnerable. I think a lot of these women who have 4/5 kids and no way of supporting them are a bit vulnerable/ lead chaotic lives or are in abusive relationships.