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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU why do women have more than 2 children

300 replies

Gin96 · 09/12/2019 12:45

2 children, Now we have the benifit cap? I see so many women struggling after having baby number 3 after the cut off date in 2017. I don’t agree with the cap but it is what it is. Men should pay towards their children but i’m afraid a lot don’t and it’s left on the shoulders of women. Why do women put themselves in this vulnerable position?

OP posts:
twins2019 · 09/12/2019 22:08

Soooooooooooo much judgment.

I have 4 children, planned on having 3, number 3 ended up as the most lovely surprise - twins. We don't claim and aren't entitled to anything. We are both higher rate taxpayers and can afford a comfortable lifestyle even with 4 children. We are also both one of 4 in terms of our own siblings. dH and I have been together for 20 years. We both meant it when we said until death do us part. If that comes for either of us sooner than later we have life insurance.

Does that make my 4 children acceptable?

Macca84 · 09/12/2019 22:56

I'm a 4th and last child. Sometimes you need to keep going till you get a fabulous one.

Livelovebehappy · 09/12/2019 23:32

If you can afford to have three then that’s fine. It’s when people who are struggling with two, financially, then think it’s a great idea to have another, just because they ‘want to’, and then moan afterwards about having to use food banks and having a house that isn’t big enough. I had two. Would have loved more, but didn’t because I knew it would be irresponsible to have another when I couldn’t afford. Obviously some go into it when they can afford and then life experiences such as losing a job or family breakup puts them into poverty, but I’m talking here about people who choose to have more when they know they can’t afford.

titnomatani · 09/12/2019 23:37

@Elbeagle that's what I've taken from the OPs post- she's asking (I think) why women have more than two children considering there's a benefit cap at having two.

RainMinusBow · 09/12/2019 23:41

I'm pg with my third, first two are with my ex-husband. I only have them half of the time (not my choice) so in a way it is like being childless for long periods of time. Also, first baby for fiancé. We both work ft and although not on great wages, won't be claiming benefits of any description.

Countryescape · 09/12/2019 23:47

@TheQueef they do in NZ. It’s happens all the time!

SleepingStandingUp · 09/12/2019 23:49

I'm having more than 2 children cos the egg split.

Oops.

LadyMacbethWasMisunderstood · 09/12/2019 23:53

I do not approve at all of the benefits cap. And I deplore the fact that single mothers (or anyone) Should struggle. I am a lifelong socialist.

But it is hard to know where to begin with your OP.
Not everyone is on benefits. Not every mother is looking for the father go support them.

I had a third child because I wanted one, was fortunate enough biologically to be able to have one and could afford to have one. This was 8 tests ago. The environmental impact was less considered then. But that is not what your OP is about as I read it.

I have a professional job, am not reliant on anyone else (or the state) for financial support and have insurances to protect the future. I am as financially independent as it is possible to be. I am not wealthy. At all. I live in a fairly modest house by comparison to my colleagues. But I can afford the children I have. And I spend a decent percentage of my income on insurance and savings so we have security for the future.

I cannot really understand how the OP can fail to see that there are many circumstances where people will plan and provide responsibly for a third child.

LadyMacbethWasMisunderstood · 09/12/2019 23:55

8 years ago. Not 8 tests!

notnowmaybelater · 10/12/2019 06:31

Either Gin96 is on a wind up or she's thinking of somebody specific.

Gin96 has a SIL perhaps or other acquaintance who, having broken up with the father of her first three children, who failed to support his children and isn't expected to in his social circle, has met a new man, who got her pregnant with their 4th child and also buggered off, leaving her reliant on insufficient benefits because nobody expects him to support the fruit of his loins either - no social pressure or heavy disapproval of deadbeat dads, so it doesn't happen - by the sound of it.

The benefits cap is reprehensible because it puts children into poverty, which any supposedly first world country should be deeply ashamed of. As others have pointed out it's also, on a totally cold, calculated level a misguided policy because children who grow up in poverty tend , on average, to be less likely to be able to contribute through taxes and socially responsible long term work as adults. Free childcare for 2 year olds in poverty is supposed to address this issue, yet the benefits cap takes away with the other hand - the children in the free childcare won't benefit nearly as much if they're living in a stressful environment because of constant intense money worries, the house is cold, there isn't enough hot water for baths and they're fed cheap junk food or going hungry because their parents can't afford anything better. Still worse if they're subject to the disruption and stress of losing their home due to non payment of rent. It's counterproductive.

That is a very specific problem, but the fact remains most people choosing to have 3 children have a long list of things to consider, with the benefits cap being irrelevant to people not reliant on benefits - relationship duration and security, savings, job security, coping skills, support network, health, needs of existing children are all far more relevant to most families.

I do have aquatintances who struggled very vocally with two children who openly announced the decision to ttc (announcing to a large group of friends and acquaintances the plan to ttc is a pretty strange thing to do in my opinion anyway, not announcing a pregnancy but a decision to have unprotected sex in order to conceive...) where I've inwardly thought wtf? When people are clearly really struggling (not in this case financially but emotionally) to cope with two children it seems absolutely incomprehensible to actively decide to create another baby. I really do wonder what's going on in the thought process there. Other people, of course, don't struggle at all and on an individual level have no reason not to have a bigger family - environmental responsibility is the only argument against for some people, and it's often hard to see that as a personal factor (more so if already pregnant than if thinking about whether to conceive).

Perhaps Gin96 should have posted a wider question about what people consider before ttc or going ahead with a third or subsequent pregnancy. Financial security should definitely be a factor, but making it about benefits makes this a question about a specific individual of GIN96 's acquaintance I suspect - or worse a general weird "anyone who did something I couldn't have managed should be shown to be wrong" slightly larger families bashing thread, or a benefits bashing thread.

I do remember, when I was teaching, a mother who kept on having more babies, every year more or less, and had four or five children in the school already with social services involvement but nothing severe enough to get the children removed. The older children were fed and housed (3 to a bedroom) but not supported. The father or fathers wasn't involved. The mother clearly had very complex problems and almost certainly learning difficulties and needed massive support, which even back then (pre austerity) she wasn't really getting. The home school liaison officer felt she really just kep having babies because she loved babies and couldn't really think long term. It's sad that there was no way for society to properly support her older children. This was pre benefits cap but it's unlikely that would have put her off at all.

Either way the scenario in which a benefits cap is a deciding factor clearly isn't generally applicable, it's a state applied punishment or gesture of political judgement on private lives which punishes small children. Punishment never actually works to change behaviour in the long run. The benefits cap was brought in to please a certain pool of right wing voters, not because of any real expectations it would influence family planning decisions.

Panicovereveryone · 10/12/2019 06:52

Changing the tax system that would make Amazon (taking just one example) pay the same amount of tax as Sainsbury’s, would bring HUGE tax inflows.

The fact that Sainsbury’s continues to have share holders and increase profits, tells me businesses will continue to function and flourish under a more equitable tax regime.

Taking money off children is problematic IMO. Look back in history and children in the UK lived is terrible terrible poverty, history within living memory. Do we want that? I don’t. Don’t kick those without, shake down those WITH

Gin96 · 10/12/2019 07:23

@notnowmaybelater a very good explanation, yes maybe my title could’ve been worded better, yes I have a family member and a friend who are both in this situation who are not coping, I can’t say anything to them but I do ask the question to myself why are putting yourself in this situation, there are choices.

OP posts:
Venger · 10/12/2019 07:54

there definitely are people who had more kids than they could afford because then they don't have to look for work (I know someone who works in the job centre who says this is definitely the case)

Oh well, if Karen at the Jobcentre says so then it must be true...

Once a claimant's youngest child is aged three they (the claimant) must look for work as per their claimant commitment. If they don't actively look for work then they get sanctioned. Yes, you could keep popping out children in order to avoid looking for work but that wont last forever, eventually there will be a last child either because of age, health, or practicality. In the meantime, those children are not responsible for the choice their parent made and pushing them into poverty should not be considered fair reward for those choices.

A life on benefits shouldn't be luxurious but it should at the very least be enough to cover the basics - rent, utilities, food, transport, clothing, some leisure activities - without anyone being impoverished, having to resort to using a food bank, or having to make the choice between heat or eat.

midsummabreak · 10/12/2019 12:01

There are choices, made with a background full of wonderful support and knowledge through education..
and then there are choices made with a background full of adversity and despair

So yes Karen at Job Centre is right, but then she is also wrong. It is not the same. No child should be punished because they were born into a family of three children.

andpancakesforbreakfast · 10/12/2019 12:42

Once a claimant's youngest child is aged three they (the claimant) must look for work as per their claimant commitment.

it's not hard to send the same exact CV in reply to 50 ads a day. There's a reason why recruitment agencies are literally flooded with crap and any job ad gets a few hundred completely unsuitable applications.

leisure activities ARE a luxury, benefits should be a very temporary help for the basics, not an incentive to stay on them. When people start going on holiday (abroad no less) theres something very wrong.

RainMinusBow · 10/12/2019 13:03

I agree re luxuries. Both fiancé and I work ft (not on particularly great wages) and completely self-sufficient. I count things like a haircut for myself as "luxuries". My kids come first and foremost!!
It does make me feel cross when I see families on benefits where the mum has her nails done every week and takes her children abroad. These are both luxuries we could never dream of affording!!

Baguetteaboutit · 10/12/2019 13:20

All benefits andpancake?

So, people on in-work benefits - benefits necessitated to allow the current business landscape to function - should not be able to go on holiday with the money due to them because of the aforementioned sponging businesses?

And people on disability benefits - they shouldn't be able to go on holiday either?

You are either extra callous or extra stupid, I'm not sure which yet.

WYP2018 · 10/12/2019 13:23

Well let’s turn it on it’s head, why as a nation would we allow children to live in poverty, just because they weren’t lucky enough to be an only child? Are we all ok with children getting their food from food banks now, and living in dire conditions because it’s not our problem?

Life is messy and not all adults have the skills or ability to plan their lives so that everything works out perfectly. Even if they do, things don’t always go to plan.

FreedomfromPE · 10/12/2019 13:25

I don't get why you are labouring under the misapprehension that men don't have children?
Or that all parents get child benefit?
Oh of course. StI'll in the general election run up and you needed to post some ingenuous crap.

notnowmaybelater · 10/12/2019 13:29

Baguetteaboutit Comments like those from and pancakes and RainMinusBow usually come from people who are on (in work) benefits themselves but suffer from cognitive dissonance and are easy dupes of the othering of a daily mail style scapegoat "family on benefits" who have 10 children and go on holiday to benidorm and wear Adidas trainers at "our" (whoever they think that is) expense.

Poetryinaction · 10/12/2019 13:32

Why is it socially acceptable to question the choices of larger families, but not of smaller, or childfree ones?
Yes, we need to save the planet. But if we all stopped procreating there would be no population.
What we need is empathetic, kind people. Not critical, nasty ones.

andpancakesforbreakfast · 10/12/2019 13:38

Baguetteaboutit
your post read as extra naive, extra stupid or just plain goady. I am not sure which.

Just because you pretend something doesn't happen doesn't stop it from happening. But keep your hand in the sand if it makes you feel better, or you have to justify yourself.

notnowmaybelater · 10/12/2019 13:41

To be fair Poetryinaction people do indeed question the choice to be child free (and question whether it was a choice) and family often criticise the choice if it's perceived as such, and the choice or perceived choice to have an only has always been the most criticised of all.

The only choice nobody questions or criticised is two children fairly close in age, full siblings, ideally one boy, one girl...

Venger · 10/12/2019 13:43

leisure activities ARE a luxury

Taking your child swimming or on an outing or to a dance class is a luxury, is it? I'm not talking about holidays abroad, previous posters have already pointed out that what was wrong about that statement. I'm talking about basic leisure activities that are beneficial to the family unit and boost both physical and mental health.

andpancakesforbreakfast · 10/12/2019 13:44

Taking your child swimming or on an outing or to a dance class is a luxury, is it?

of course it is, and you are welcome to do like the rest of us and work to pay for that... How do you think most people manage?