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Original poster

VG/Prince Andrew - to say I wasn’t sure before but I believe her

999 replies

churchandstate · 03/12/2019 07:05

I posted in a thread after the Prince Andrew interview, and although I didn’t believe him about everything he said, I wasn’t wholly convinced at that time that he was lying about sleeping with young girls, about seeing things in Epstein’s houses that should have repelled him, about having sex with Virginia Roberts in particular. I just didn’t think there was certainty to be had.

I am convinced now. I believed every word she was allowed to say last night and I am only sad they didn’t give her more air time. Prince Andrew has very serious questions to answer.

OP posts:
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7
Bluerussian · 03/12/2019 16:54

No of course not, I'm just saying that two scenarios are not identical. A child of mine would not be destitute so would have no need to find shelter in that way.

(I have known some women who were prostitutes when they were young girls.)

Passthecherrycoke · 03/12/2019 16:57

This is a real guess, but I keep coming back to her being in the same clothes for these photos. I wonder if part of the coercion was she was actually starved of cash, had all the trappings on wealth but only on their terms, and outside of this was quite cash poor. She says she was at times given large amounts of cash, but let’s not forget this would’ve been the only cash she had- it doesn’t appear she was paid any regular wages.

When I was a little older then her I had a very wealthy boyfriend but no cash of my own. It reminds me of that. She bought one or two brilliant designer fashionable outfits but had to wear them all the time to try and fit in with all the rich fashionable beautiful people she was surrounded by

Passthecherrycoke · 03/12/2019 16:58

@Bluerussian the problem with being groomed- as with the families of the Rochdale victims- is that your daughter wouldn’t want your shelter

andyoldlabour · 03/12/2019 17:00

Here is a Sun article from July this year, which predates the present scandal. The so called "lolita express", Epstein's private 727 had some interesting passengers - Bill Clinton, Prince Andrew, Kevin Spacey, Naomi Campbell.

www.thesun.co.uk/news/9539529/inside-jeffrey-epsteins-lolita-express-private-jet-prince-andrew/

TheMidasTouch · 03/12/2019 17:03

"Epstein was convicted in 2008 of only two crimes as part of a plea bargain, despite the fact that the FBI knew of at least 36 victims, some as young as 14."
This is what pees me off. Getting charges reduced and serving a minimal sentence. What does it say about the whole of the judicial system in the US? Those FBI members are men and women, the District Attorney, Lawyers and judges who all agree to downgrading crimes and letting people get away with it. They obviously don't care much about the victims of abuse. They must have parents amongst them.

The worst part is that part of his plea bargain protected others like Ghislaine Maxwell. I suppose she can take comfort that he must have really cared about her to protect her like that. We need to know her part in this. Those sealed papers need to be unsealed and the world needs to now what information they contain.

derxa · 03/12/2019 17:09

www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/dec/03/prince-andrew-cant-slink-away-from-this-now-the-tv-triumph-of-virginia-giuffre
I think this article is in bad taste. Surely no one is a winner in this horror show. A 'triumph' is surely the wrong description.
The Miami Herald was good in that it highlighted the utter misery that those girls suffered. Also the corruption involved in the justice system.
Many powerful people are being protected. PA is taking the hit for his stupid interview and allows even more sinister people to hide.

Cremebrule · 03/12/2019 17:10

‘ If they said they were a masseuse I would actually think they were........a masseuse. I wouldn't think of a masseuse who provided other services’

Utter bollocks. So it is common practice for older men to hire young looking girls as masseuses and take them to parties, on private jets etc. You’d have to be incredibly naive to take that on face value especially when those masseuses were forced to entertain his friends.

Sagradafamiliar · 03/12/2019 17:29

I have known some women who were prostitutes when they were young girls

You mean you know child sexual abuse victims/survivors.

doublebarrellednurse · 03/12/2019 17:31

I feel like a lot of people on this thread are blaming the victim because they feel like if they do then they, or their children, are better and therefore safe.

It's vile. Grow up.

TheMidasTouch · 03/12/2019 17:37

"Utter bollocks. So it is common practice for older men to hire young looking girls as masseuses and take them to parties, on private jets etc. You’d have to be incredibly naive to take that on face value especially when those masseuses were forced to entertain his friends."
I wasn't responding with regard to this particular case. I was stating that if I had a friend who was middle aged and rich, I would not question that friend about the girls/women if they have lots of houses and staff unless I saw or heard anything untoward. I would take what their said their role was at face value. Why wouldn't you? Obviously if you saw something that made you concerned then you would question the friend. I don't think being a rich man automatically means you are going to be a pervert, that's all.

lyralalala · 03/12/2019 17:43

It's very sad, but it's very typical of the attitudes towards rape and sexual violence against women

Unless she's kicking and screaming then how the poor man supposed to know that she isn't giving fully informed consent

If my wealthy friend had a teenage boy hanging around with them and suddenly there was a suggestion said teenage boy wanted to have sex with me my first thought would be "what would make a young man interested in a fat, older woman with bits that wobble unpleasantly" yet for fat, old, rich men they are never expected to think "Wait a second, why is this beautiful young woman willing to have sex with me"

TheMidasTouch · 03/12/2019 17:47

I understand that VR was excited at receiving training to be a proper masseuse but wouldn't walking in and having to massage a naked man be such a shock to a 16-year old that they would decide it wasn't the career for them? VR didn't say anything to idicate her shock at this in the interview. When then asked to take all her clothes off to receive a massage to see what pressure is needed, she did so. I would have just said 'no' even as a 16-year old. If she then had a vibrator forced up her vagina then I'm damn sure I'd have a change of heart about the profession. Did she fear for her life at this point, oterwise I can't see why she'd carry on?

It isn't as if VR had been groomed at this point. She'd just been selected and then it was during the iterview process that she was questioned about her life. I just don't know why, after that first occasion, she didn't just phone her dad and say she was coming home (or just tell JE and GM to eff off).

Sagradafamiliar · 03/12/2019 17:51

Tell me you are joking, Midas.

lyralalala · 03/12/2019 17:52

I would have just said 'no' even as a 16-year old.

You have no idea how you would have reacted.

Unless you were abused from 7, as she tells us she was, and unless you were in that exact circumstance you do not know what you'd have done

TheMidasTouch · 03/12/2019 17:53

"If my wealthy friend had a teenage boy hanging around with them and suddenly there was a suggestion said teenage boy wanted to have sex with me my first thought would be "what would make a young man interested in a fat, older woman with bits that wobble unpleasantly"
I agree.

"yet for fat, old, rich men they are never expected to think "Wait a second, why is this beautiful young woman willing to have sex with me"
I dont believe men are that stupid that they don't know what the attraction is.

lyralalala · 03/12/2019 17:55

I dont believe men are that stupid that they don't know what the attraction is.

And I don't believe they are they are stupid enough to not know when circumstances suggest they should be wondering just how consensual it is

They just don't care enough to bother

BackInTime · 03/12/2019 17:55

If they said they were a masseuse I would actually think they were........a masseuse. I wouldn't think of a masseuse who provided other services.

Really? So your friend regularly has teenage girls as masseuses and you wouldn't raise an eyebrow? Would you wonder why it's always only teenage girls? Why not experienced professional qualified people of different ages and gender? Why only high school teens who were picked up at the school gates in a taxi.

Gardai · 03/12/2019 17:55

I’m afraid Midas isn’t very wise to the ways of the world, if only life was as simple and straightforward as you think it is.

Pumperthepumper · 03/12/2019 17:56

I mean, this is fucking appalling:

I would have just said 'no' even as a 16-year old.

Why do you think she didn’t then? Why do you think she chose to go along with it?

Sagradafamiliar · 03/12/2019 17:57

Because it's all the predatory, conniving 16 year old child's fault, of course!

Passthecherrycoke · 03/12/2019 17:58

“I would have just said 'no' even as a 16-year old”

And VG didn’t say no. She let it carry on.

So, is your point:

  1. She was a willing participant
  2. She should’ve know what would happen so she deserved it
  3. Something else?
BanoffeeTart · 03/12/2019 18:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Rumboogie · 03/12/2019 18:00

@TheMidasTouch

Long way back in the thread, but I wanted to thank you for such a good, balanced post.

Passthecherrycoke · 03/12/2019 18:01

Maybe you could rtft banoffee since all the points have been extensively discussed

Pumperthepumper · 03/12/2019 18:01

For the accuser to be making hundreds of thousands from interviews does not look good because it makes people question her motives. I'm not a 'misogynist' for stating this very obvious fact

But that’s not enough - why do her motives matter?