AIBU to think that Mumsnet is becoming increasingly less feminist and that this..

[BertrandRussell]

..is a bad thing?

But what's happening at the moment is that feminism is being repurposed into a catch all social justice movement for a vague notion of equality for everyone, and the needs of women and girls, and our sex based rights, pushed to the side. Who else will speak for us if not feminism?

I think that is partly because feminism was quite strongly based on the liberation of white women in the past. It's being repurposed now, because more women, from different backgrounds are joining in and bringing their ideas with them, some of which may counter what benefits western white women and its creating an us/them dichotomy.

Add to that that people are finally starting to listen and see that the whole time we were crying "rape culture" and "unequal pay" and "institutionalized sexism" we were bloody right, it's not surprising they want to join in our small successes and our current visibility.

The way forward WILL have to include all women, regardless of their background, and I don't think hunkering down screaming "MINE" will get us anywhere. Of course, then the question is, What form of feminism will encompass all women?

I think that the problem with FWR board and why many people avoid it, even if they are interested in feminist debate, is that if people are arguing/debating and focusing on debating points they are making eg "you are wrong about x I think because of y" that is fine, good debate, whereas the arguments on the feminism board often become personal very quickly instead - "you are wrong because you are an MRA" for example or "are you so badly informed that you don't know that everyone thinks that "equality and choice is a patriarchal stance" or similar.

“Putting women front and centre” - In other words redressing the balance due to the still massive inequality of power. Still a belief in equality and not female supremacy!

thatisnotfeminism that's probably because of the move to Feminist Chat. There are still the more academic boards over there.

But yes, the Cult of Me does tend to reduce the content of a discussion to feelings rather than facts.

I think that is partly because feminism was quite strongly based on the liberation of white women in the past. It's being repurposed now, because more women, from different backgrounds are joining in and bringing their ideas with them, some of which may counter what benefits western white women and its creating an us/them dichotomy.

That wasn't what I was referring to. I agree that is the case to an extent but I'm afraid I don't see modern "intersectional" feminism as wholly progressive for the clear reasons I described in earlier posts.

“Putting women front and centre” - In other words redressing the balance due to the still massive inequality of power. Still a belief in equality and not female supremacy!

Exactly.

But what's happening at the moment is that feminism is being repurposed into a catch all social justice movement for a vague notion of equality for everyone, and the needs of women and girls, and our sex based rights, pushed to the side. Who else will speak for us if not feminism?

There are many issues here. In terms of equality under law, this was and is fundamental. Until recently women had inferior rights to men under law and our position is greatly improved now though there is still work to be done.

In terms of social equality this is a separate issue though with overlaps. Again, until recently lower classes in our culture had inferior rights. There are still huge issues and things to be overcome. I think that some feminist issues would be resolved when wider social issues impacting on them are resolved. For example - better education for all will impact positively on women as well as poorer men.

Separate from that are the social issues, the fact that women have to put up with constant abuse day to day - but trying to put women's needs as the central focus here just won't help I don't think. I think that the real problem is that we are bringing up our boys/men really badly, and we are bringing out our girls/women to have the wrong expectations. The focus for older women like us should not be on telling other adults their choices are wrong, but on thinking about how our society is bringing up our children, across the board. The people providing the childcare are the ones who influence the children so trying to dictate that women partly hand over to men as some kind of act of emancipation for women is going to be a backward step as the men will be passing down their entrenched sexist attitudes to their children

That wasn't what I was referring to

I know what you were referring to, and in respect for Bertrand, I'm swerving it in different direction.

My point (however badly put) was that when you say this: the needs of women and girls, and our sex based rights you aren't speaking for all women, because there are no clear, unified, needs, wants & rights of all women. One woman's "woman only space" is another woman's "segregation". Currently there is no unified feminism that speaks for all women which is where the arguments come from.

Currently there is no unified feminism that speaks for all women which is where the arguments come from.

Which is also why it may seem that the movement is being repurposed.

Sorry, should have concluded my thought, but they just brought pizza into the office and I was distracted!

OP I am not getting much chance to post here, but just going back to what I said up thread about someone saying they didn't know what to do about porn, and you said you had never heard that on FWR, but it was in fact you on this thread (unless I am going mad) - 1 dec 15:54 - I agree, cosima. I think the impact that poem [porn] is having in our society is much more significant than we realise. I think it is seriously damaging to the way men and women relate to each other, and is particularly bad for young women. But I have no idea what we can do about it. Did I misunderstand that? The post by cosima just above was about porn not a poem.

My point (however badly put) was that when you say this: the needs of women and girls, and our sex based rights you aren't speaking for all women, because there are no clear, unified, needs, wants & rights of all women. One woman's "woman only space" is another woman's "segregation". Currently there is no unified feminism that speaks for all women which is where the arguments come from.

I think it's reasonably common across cultures that people don't want the opposite sex present when they are naked or in a potentially humiliating situation. I don't think you can culturally relativise your way out of that, throw your hands up and say "there's no universal experience of being a woman so we can't ask for anything as a sex based right!". Anyway, in the U.K., this is certainly the norm.

I don't think anyone should have to get naked in front of anyone. I don't see that's as purely a female issue. If people in the UK are being forced to get naked in front of people, you've got bigger issues than feminism.

I totally agree it should apply to both sexes, but I do see it as slightly more of a female issue due to the huge power imbalance and vulnerability of women and girls to sexual crime and sexual harassment. And yes people have been forced to get naked with people of the opposite sex in prisons and shelters in the US and Canada too.

There's no point rehashing the "gender neutral/trans" single sex space arguments. I believe that privacy and dignity are fundamental sex based rights. They are certainly important to women here in the U.K.

It's not a particularly "intersectional" approach to disregard the need for privacy and dignity, because women from other cultures may be less empowered to speak out, and may have needs such as female only swimming sessions etc.

Working class women/women dependent on the state are more likely to end up in a scary situation in unisex facilities in less safe areas than middle class women might choose to frequent. They are also more likely to have no choice than to use public services like shelters, hospital wards whereas middle class women are more likely to be able to have the financial ability to avoid this if it's important to them.

Just because not everyone wants to avail themselves of a right is no reason not to support others in that right

Although I have to disagree with some posters here, I think we are talking basic human rights to privacy, dignity etc, not women's rights.

I'm really loving the conversation & I want to say I will come back to it and would love to have a legitimate, open conversation on gender rights/issues/segregated sex spaces, because I do think the FWR board shuts down any real duscussion, but it's the weekend for me, and I'm having wine with DH after a b-day dinner with friends, so not in a place to discuss!

So Bertrand, please start thread 2, because I think this was needed, and we continue this as a real discussion place! I'll be back Sunday!

I’ve been shot down in flames when I’ve tried to be honest about some aspects of my relationship or the relatives on MN because people get livid so quickly and call “abuse”, “LTB” and other insults based on one scenario in the opening post.

Well tbh most people have scenarios where mnetters would trill LTB or accuse abuse because someone shouted once over the course of a year. There is often a 'we should be nice at all times' overtone to the judgement as girls are conditioned into. I wouldn't personally take any notice and just be careful what you post like we all are.

Cultural stuff is sometimes tricky with feminism but equally in some ways our culture of celebrity/ selfies/ fake boobs etc isn't exactly great for women either.

I honestly don’t think I have ever seen a LTB thread where the B wasn’t eminently L-able. Women put up with soooo much crap. And just think how much must have happened already to get to the point of even posting about it....

People often jump onto details or one-off situations in my experience. It also isn't just in relation to the men, many I agree sound like utter turds. There is also a tendency to berate women for any tiny relationship-based misdemeanour.

Not to make this a TAAT, but this thread provides some evidence of the steadily decreasing feminist nature of MN.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/3763845-Male-gym-employee-walked-into-female-changing-rooms-while-I-was-naked

Some of the replies are gobsmacking.

Conservatives have proposed a reform of the family courts re DV combining criminal and family courts into one. Not a peep.

Start a thread on it then.

What's holding you back?

It's cos of the increase in Huns innit?

Can someone please tell what "huns* are?

Attila.

If a feminist is as your description, then I'm not one. I think about what I do and how it impacts on all people, not just women.

Hmmm big @ fail, obviously I meant @BertrandRussell