Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think that Mumsnet is becoming increasingly less feminist and that this..

857 replies

BertrandRussell · 29/11/2019 11:33

..is a bad thing?

OP posts:
MrsMaiselsMuff · 03/12/2019 13:47

That Adriene thread is all that is wrong with FWR. There are so many things going wrong in this world, and people lose their shit over a yoga video being too inclusive!

Olliephaunt4eyes · 03/12/2019 13:55

Things I have seen on FWR:

  • At least two lesbian posters being accused repeatedly of being "fake lesbians" and secretly men. I don't think they were. I saw them post elsewhere on MN about non political stuff and they seemed genuine.

  • Any women who like any kind of non-vanilla sex (not just choking, but anal or BDSM) being accused of being men pretending, being asked if they are trans, being told they don't really enjoy it, they are just pandering to men/betraying other women/should keep these things a shameful taboo secret. That's been on multiple threads. Basically, there's no acceptance that different sexual styles are valid.

  • So so many posts where anyone admits to not being GC on FWR and is called a TRA/MRA/handmaiden/fake man. Often all of the above.

  • Bisexual women being accused of "penis worshippers" with some attached pretty biphobic implications.

  • The word "handmaiden" being trotted out repeatedly to anyone who doesn't hold the "right" views and on at least one post to someone who's only crime seemed to be being bisexual.

To be fair, I've not read FWR for ages so these aren't incidents from the past couple of months. Just things I remember seeing when I first came on MN and made me think "nope. Not for me".

Olliephaunt4eyes · 03/12/2019 13:57

@Dangerfloof - then awesome! @BertrandRussell is definitely U in that case, MN is not becoming less rad fem and this post is based on a misunderstanding!

HandsOffMyRights · 03/12/2019 14:40

Lots of us have brought up self ID on this thread, to be fair, not just those of us who use FWR regularly, mainly because of that issue.

I was really interested in the pp who talked upthread about her views pre and post 30 and how she'd wanted to start a thread on that. I hope she comes back (I think she was dashing off).

I've changed significantly - through age, circumstance, post kids/marriage, ageing parents etc.

I came to this late - lived in a bubble until I reached a certain point in time. I can't unsee it now, even the films or books I enjoyed are seen through a different lens.

How I wish I could go back in time to college when one of my lecturers was one of the women at Greenham Common. I'd have a fair few questions to ask!

Dangerfloof · 03/12/2019 14:55

MN is not becoming less rad fem and this post is based on a misunderstanding!
And that's not what I even said.

Cohle · 03/12/2019 15:08

I agree, the response to the Adriene video was ridiculous. It was a perfect example of a third space being offered, and many FWR posters were still furious about it. It exposed some very unpleasant attitudes I think.

peachgreen · 03/12/2019 15:09

I don't think anyone is suggesting anybody should pretend to hold an opinion they don't, just saying that going against those opinions on Mumsnet - especially in FWR - can result in a rather nasty pile-on. So perhaps those who differ in opinion go elsewhere to discuss particular feminist issues.

peachgreen · 03/12/2019 15:17

I agree @Olliephaunt4eyes, I've seen similar (and I think I could even be the "handmaiden" referred to in your last post!). I'm a trans-inclusive feminist and have been accused of being a man, a TRA, a handmaiden and a homophobe despite my fairly extensive posting history making it fairly clear I'm none of those things! I understand why some GC feminists are mistrusting because I'm sure the FWR board does get trolled by those with an agenda, but seeing anyone with different views accused of being one of the above gets pretty tiring.

cosima1 · 03/12/2019 15:33

As a younger woman I was on a rad feminist rant most of the time. It’s not that I reject those views as I’ve got older, but so think having children made me see the world differently - as if biological reality became transposed on top of the theories. I realise now, in my mid-40s, that the truth of it is that women are highly contradictory. I do think there are, broadly-speaking, differences in the way men and women react after having a baby and to try and deny this, or treat the sexes as if they should feel / behave the same as men just causes more stress and guilt for women. I’ve never doubted that I’m equal to men, but I don’t need or want to define my worth within a male-defined / capitalist mindset. I’d rather define my own worth in my own context, if that makes any sense.

The kind of feminism I’d like to see in the future is one where traditionally “ female” behaviours or tasks such as childrearing are no longer seen as inferior. Unfortunately, on MN women are sometimes their own worst enemies under the guise of “feminism.” This change could start on MN - if there wasn’t the prevalent insinuation that women should feel lesser because they SAH, for instance, rather than have a “real” job. Why should we have to prove ourselves in the male-constructed, capitalist context to feel “worthy?” and “equal?” I think in the future women will get to a point where they will redefine their own equality structures. Rather than seeing biology and child rearing as an impediment to equality, they might put it front and centre and expect society to get around this, not the other way around. I think this will happen in the future and as it becomes more commonplace to work flexibly and from home, women will be better able to find their own balance on female terms. Not the patriarchy telling us what we should want (ie doing it all, as opposed to having it all) and “feminism” essentially colluding with this because it has internalised that traditional male mindsets / behaviours / roles are what we should want.

Ereshkigal · 03/12/2019 16:10

I do see more and more Gen Z women and girls refusing to define themselves as feminists because feminism has become synonymous with transphobia.

Utter nonsense. For that to happen they would need to perceive that feminism is about centring women and girls and failing to pander to male centric ideology. Which obviously it is. However that isn't the case. Feminism is being watered down into a catch all social justice movement for everyone. I don't believe that young women see radical feminism, which rightly fights for women and girls and has analysis based on liberation of the female sex class from oppression, as the voice of "feminism", because this is not how it is portrayed in the mainstream media that they consume.

Mumsnet is one of the few spaces that allows women to question gender identity ideology dogma in any depth and reasonably respectfully.

What I do think is that many other women, of all ages, are taking what I would consider a "feminist" standpoint on this without even realising. Because they see it for what it is, a blatant power grab for control and dominance in which male feelings count for everything and women's for very little.

BoneyBackJefferson · 03/12/2019 17:18

BertrandRussell
Well, I have seen the shutting down of obvious trolls, and I suppose if you haven’t been on the board for long you might not recognise the troll for what it is?

I have seen it where they have been trolls and I have seen it where there has been a difference of opinion and posters have wanted to shutdown the debate.

And people often don't post on FWR because they have been shot down, chewed up and spat out multiple times.

BertrandRussell · 03/12/2019 17:34

Fair enough. I must either be very unobservant or part of the chewing up and spitting out pack....

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 03/12/2019 17:37

Mind you, I don’t go on trans threads very much.

OP posts:
BoneyBackJefferson · 03/12/2019 18:14

BertrandRussell

either, neither or both Grin

FWR is a fantastic place to learn, but not so much to engage.
IMO it has always been polarised and with the recent increase in trans issues even more so.

MIdgebabe · 03/12/2019 18:35

SAHM is tricky,

I don't look down on someone who makes that choice as such, but I would never recommend it because of the risk. My experience suggests that you are much more likely to be abused or feel stuck in an abusive relationship if you haven't got your own financial buffer

So how do we enable people to look after children whilst keeping some financial autonomy/safety net

Cohle · 03/12/2019 18:39

I got accused of being a troll on a FWR thread because my username apparently sounds too much like "peek hole" and therefore I'm obviously a MRA pervert Hmm

Odd accusations of that nature can make it hard to engage substantively with discussions, even for posters who don't mind a bit of "robust debate".

Blakes77 · 03/12/2019 19:56

That's an interesting post cosima. I will have a think about that.
Well, looking at peachgreens list I would agree with most of those so I guess I'm rad fem, if you have to classify.
In terms of "my" feminism I always look at the effect on the people at the bottom of the pile, the ones with less power. So I'm hugely against ANY male people in female prisons, I think children need protecting and I want women to be able to have financial independence if they want it.
I don't really care if women want to SAH tbh because if they can afford to do that I'm not worried about them! Working class women have always worked and need to be able to do that.
I might start the thread I was thinking of next week when I have more time, thanks for encouragement Smile

GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman · 03/12/2019 21:03

The kind of feminism I’d like to see in the future is one where traditionally “ female” behaviours or tasks such as childrearing are no longer seen as inferior.
I agree with that. If you're a SAHM, for whatever reason, you can easily feel that some feminists are looking down at you for letting the side down. For flexible working to really make a difference, both parents need to be up for it. We also need less idiotically long work hours. That would really help.

And people often don't post on FWR because they have been shot down, chewed up and spat out multiple times.
Again, as I said upthread, I really don't think that FWR is the only place on MN where the debate can get a bit rough at times. It's not nice being the lone voice under a massive pile-on, especially when other posters imply you're being dishonest in some way. It happened to me - and not on FWR.

BertrandRussell · 03/12/2019 21:16

“It's not nice being the lone voice under a massive pile-on, especially when other posters imply you're being dishonest in some way. It happened to me - and not on FWR.“

It’s happened to me - usually when I say something feminist on any board other than FWR. Or if I say something considered “snowflaky”. It happens on every board on Mumsnet try The Dognouse for size - but it only seems to be considered a huge problem on FWR.. Which I do find ...interesting.

OP posts:
cosima1 · 03/12/2019 21:16

Blakes - I don’t have the answers, really. It does seem to me that, in the main these days, women feel as if they “should” return to work. Obviously, most households need two incomes these days (or one obviously if it’s a single parent), so it’s not really a choice as such. Of course other women need that sense of purpose and challenge which is fantastic. But I think, even where there is genuine choice, women feel pressure to return to work and that they should want more than “just” looking after their kids because “feminism”. But all that happens in reality, is that other women, on minimum wage or thereabouts, pick up the slack, as nursery workers or cleaners. It’s seems to me that as women’s roles and expectations have shifted over the decades, men’s haven’t, so it’s still women doing the “women’s” work, they’re just being paid NMW for it, while mums feel guilt whatever they do. If you’re SAH you’re a handmaiden; if you’re at work, you’re “abandoning” your kids. It’s blatant internalised misogyny that makes women look down on each other, in an attempt to justify their own work /life balance. Look at the SAHM/ WOHM threads on here every week - it’s depressing! None of it is feminist, in my view - such MM debate is the antithesis to feminism imo. Se do the work of patriarchy ourselves with this kind of short-sightedness and insecurity. Men just don’t have to think this way. So this is how I think feminism needs to adapt. In the UK at least, we don’t need to fight for the right for women to work anymore (yes I know the gender pay gap is a real thing, but women working is now default). I think feminism needs to reclaim the value of our biology and motherhood and what has traditionally been “female” work and give it status. Why should nursery staff, who have our babies and children’s lives in their hands, be paid less than someone doing a job that society could probably do without, if the truth be known. Why should women feel ashamed, or as if they’re “letting feminism down,” for wanting to raise their own children? Feminism has got us to where we are now, but it needs to keep evolving and women need to stop boxing themselves in and put their own needs and desires forward as equally valid. We need to be honest with ourselves on the context of now and not replace one “ism” of “shoulds” with another set. Corporations and sork environments need to start adapting to women / mothers as half the population, not the other way round, but we can’t get there if feminism tries to deny the fact there there are differences between men and women and that equality no longer has to mean “sameness.”

Teateaandmoretea · 03/12/2019 21:19

And people often don't post on FWR because they have been shot down, chewed up and spat out multiple times.

Personally I got bored the first time with multiple posters trilling that I wasn't a feminist because I didn't agree with them word for word. Tedious as hell. It's interesting because I actually looked at the boards the other day and actually there are barely any recent posts at all and none at all that are remotely interesting. Maybe even the 'members' started finding it boring 🤷🏻‍♀️.

MarshaBradyo · 03/12/2019 21:20

It happens on other boards but FWR has an extra list of untrue insults that are used. If they were to go it’d be better for it.

BertrandRussell · 03/12/2019 21:26

“ FWR has an extra list of untrue insults that are used.“

Well- sometimes they are true, that’s the problem - however, as I said earlier, I don’t choose to use them myself. But what about all the insults that are regularly thrown at feminists?

OP posts:
MarshaBradyo · 03/12/2019 21:29

Sometimes they may be true but a lot if the time they are not, hence this thread. Percentage true to untrue? Who knows.

Insults aimed at feminists don’t turn me off the FWR boards because I haven’t seen them on there.

cosima1 · 03/12/2019 21:30

Also FWR in particular, is very “white British” centric. I have many Muslim friends, in particular, who feel they couldn’t even post a thread about their family or DH on AIBU, let alone FWR! They couldn’t even begin.