AIBU to think that Mumsnet is becoming increasingly less feminist and that this..

[BertrandRussell]

..is a bad thing?

“ I get fed up always being treated as one of the bad guys.”

There’s an easy answer to that!

Oh boy. I'm just going to leave this here... www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/16/white-fragility-racism-interview-robin-diangelo

I suspect only white British posters could be unaware that Mumsnet is white British dominated! It's not unique to FWR, it's site-wide

Oh I do agree that it’s definitely very white British dominated but to suggest that there ONLY white British women on FWR is often an accusation used to belittle the FWR site and the opinions given there. It’s actually usually has middle class tagged on for good measure.

I do get sickened by the obvious racism shown throughout the whole site being explained away as ‘concern’ or lack of knowledge. The anti NI threads are common too, under the guise of Brexit/Remain ‘concerns’.

I don’t know what can be done to encourage more women from various backgrounds to join in conversations, though. Obviously if a place feels unwelcoming to anyone, they will be reluctant to join and I do think that MNHQ can be a bit slow at deleting the racism threads, which absolutely doesn’t help.

I have never personally experienced racism on MN and I really didn’t mean to imply that. Actually, the first time I started a thread on MN many years ago, Bertrand was the first person to reply and she was very kind (it went very quickly downhill after that though)

I’m thinking of how I can explain myself, but I’ll try this as one example. I was chatting to a friend today and she’s in full swing organising her daughters wedding. Her daughter is 24 now and I’ve known her since she was 12. My friend was moaning about this or that catering company today because she’s been ripped off, but I know if she were to post an AIBU (she wouldn’t)! they wouldn’t be talking about the CF caterers because this is an arranged marriage and the daughter has never physically met the husband who she will be going to live in UAE with. I have mixed feelings about this tbh, but then, DH has family members who are in semi-arranged marriages. Even though there’s loads of threads about weddings on MN, I’ve never seen one about arranged marriages, I don’t think. That’s just one example of why some people might think this is not the place to post. Some people would be very shocked by the swearing too tbh. I’m not saying anyone is right or wrong necessarily, but it’s just different.

Thank you, cosima!

I don’t think there is much overt racism-or I haven’t seen much. But there is loads of the low level and “dog whistle” type. Every gollywog thread, every thread about editing “much loved” children’s books, Poppy Day threads, the pc gone mad ones, Meghan threads, the I don’t know what words to use any more. They are all full of sometimes conscious, sometimes unconscious racism. And if you want to experience a pile on try one of those!

The arranged marriage thing is a good point. I know people who have had arranged marriages where they have met and made a free (if limited) choice. But I think I would find it pretty hard to be positive about a marriage where a young woman is marrying someone she has never met. And it would be very difficult to express my views without sounding racist, I think....

I actually think that raises a really good point about another overlooked aspect of feminism on Mumsnet. I'd argue not many of the feminists here would identify as intersectional feminists and certainly it wouldn't be their priority. That's probably partly a generational thing, and partly because of the nature of this site (people come here to talk about parenting, not issues around class or race - though of course those do come up). I suspect intersectional feminists would have different views on some things than the "approved" ones we mentioned above. (I would hesitate to define myself as an intersectional feminist as I don't consider myself to be educated enough, but I would certainly lean in that direction.)

Bertrand I would feel the same about arranged marriage but I'd actually go further and say that my views WOULD count as racist. Not through malice but through ignorance and inherent prejudice. As someone from a white western background my preconceived notions of marriage (and the necessary involvement of romantic love) are pretty ingrained and it would be very hard for me to appreciate the perspective of someone who comes from a culture of arranged marriage where romantic love isn't necessarily prioritised (I know this isn't true of all cultures which practice arranged. marriage, but some). So I guess when it came to discussions about arranged marriage I'd prefer to listen than to speak.

When I said "appreciate the perspective of" I should have said "truly understand the perspective of". Obviously I'd appreciate hearing it.

I don’t think it’s racist to say you don’t agree with arranged marriage. But the point I was trying to make is, if you lurk on a site where the default response is that women are advised to go NC with any irritating relatives; or that engagements / rings/ engagement parties are often seen as sexist etc etc, someone who has this kind of wedding might feel unable to chip in given the circumstances! Even I have to hold back on threads and I NC all the time because I’ve learned that sometimes the reaction will be too much and I really can’t tell if it’s feminist or just aggressive.

cosima But don't you think that it's hard for white western people to have an opinion on it that doesn't somehow stem from racism, even if it's just the benign ignorance kind?

But yes, you're very right in that whatever the cause it must be hard for many non white British women to feel they can join in the feminist discussions here.

The irony is, that two close friends I have who went through arranged marriages both have fantastic professional careers (while I’m a SAHM) and neither changed their names to the DH’s (whereas I did)

What is “intersectional feminism” peach?

I think you can take a view about certain cultural practices, without it being a racial issue necessarily. It’s ok to say, “that wouldn’t be for me.”

There's a good and fairly short article here that summarises it. iwda.org.au/what-does-intersectional-feminism-actually-mean/

Many BAME women (and disabled women, and working class women etc) would probably be wary of a white feminist describing herself as intersectional because it's often a nice label without much action behind it.

I get your point and I suppose there are of course cultural practices I vehemently condemn without much caring about whether or not my disapproval stems from racial prejduce (FGM immediately comes to mind). But I guess I would rather prioritise the voices of those with lived experience.

Interestingly my (white British) parents come from a culture of arranged marriage (religious sect) and although theirs wasn't, their siblings' were. One ended in divorce, one couple is fairly unhappy and the final couple is very happy!

Thanks for the link - very interesting!

would probably be wary of a white feminist describing herself as intersectional because it's often a nice label without much action behind it.

So called "intersectional" feminism often completely disregards social class and is just as inaccessible to many women as you claim other types of feminism are.

I think it's perfectly possible to object to the idea of arranged marriages without being racist. For me, feminism is about autonomy, specifically the struggle for female autonomy in a patriarchal society. Arranging a marriage takes autonomy away from both members of the couple, particularly from the woman because, in general, she has fewer options than the man if she decides to bail out. That said, if a person is from a cultural background where arranged marriages are the norm, and they are content to go along with that, then I don't feel it's my place to kick up a stink.

ereshkigal Feminism that disregards class (or economic background, maybe) isn't intersectional feminism, though. And as I said in my comment above, working class women "would probably be wary of a white feminist describing herself as intersectional because it's often a nice label without much action behind it".

I'm not sure that I said that any kind of feminism is "inaccessible", did I?

Sorry ereshkigal, just noticed you actually quoted that part of my post. But as you'll see I actually was referring to working class women with that sentence.

Can we not lose that bloody word?

Intersectional started life as a fairly meaningful term. Now it just seems to be a stick with which to beat one of the social or political identities we all have. Far from increasing incusivity (another word that has been tainted) it seems to increase division, othering and isolation.

working class women "would probably be wary of a white feminist describing herself as intersectional because it's often a nice label without much action behind it". Look at that for example. Just look at the ease with which it sets 2 groups of women against each other, the trite dismissal of one group of women.

Stop it. Do the woman who coined the pharse a favour. STOP USING IT

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/30/intersectional-feminism-jargon

I don’t think it’s my place to kick up a stink either. But I am very uncomfortable with automatically letting things pass because they are religious or cultural. It’s very difficult. I’ve asked several young women over the years if they were happy with the decision they were making about moving in together or marrying and if they weren’t to tell me and I’d help them get out of it. I’ve never done it for an arranged marriage- but I can imagine circumstances where I might....

I am probably coming in far to late to this to contribute much, but, I have noticed that the small 'c' conservative voice has become stronger on this site, as it has in the real world.

This used to be a site predominately used by educated, middle class, liberal minded women, and, I suppose, was a bit of an echo chamber (one I liked to be fair), but now I feel there are more conservative, less educated, more economically diverse posters which has resulted in a change in the type of "feminism" your seeing on here. It's becoming a very, my way or the highway, type of ideology that you often see in the right wing.

It's becoming a very, my way or the highway, type of ideology that you often see in the right wing. We were talking about that when watching the news coverage of young people and climate change. The term "Give in to our demands" was used a lot!

Not listen to, discuss, explore, research, put in place - nope! Just give in and do it!

That terminology is used a lot these days, as thought he louest voice just has to be "on the right side of history" - another term fully intended to close down debate!

And think about it.. who writes histories??

it must be hard for many non white British women to feel they can join in the feminist discussions here.
Must it indeed?
As malaguena pointed out It's so patronising when poster like peachgreens ASSUME everyone posting is white. Or British. Or non Muslim, or whatever
Unless you start every post declaring your race and class and religion who's going to know!
There IS thoughtless racism on MN (and yes the Meghan posters are horrific), just like there is in the UK in general. I would say that's because MN draws in a massive cross section of people. It maybe didn't used to but it does now.

I have recently incorporated intersectional analysis into a paper I wrote. Used properly, it's incredibly powerful as an explanatory device. Best to go back to Crenshaw's own papers and be careful re which others you learn from/cite because there is an awful lot of misinformation out there and intersectionality has been used by men (and some women) to denounce anything a woman says if she happens to be while-skinned and look like she isn't impoverished or trans. This isn't what intersectionality is about.

PS not all people of the same background or religion even agree with each other on things like marriage or hijab or childcare or career choices... It's not like sharing a background culture automatically makes people in agreement!
Feminism is to help women rise, whatever their background surely?