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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

I just resigned! AIBU to not pay for work course before leaving

210 replies

Hellomumsne · 26/11/2019 23:35

I have a dilemma I could use some help with.

My job offered for me to go on a very expensive (£4500) course a few months ago. They actually persuaded me to do it and said they'd love for me to have the chance...

At the time I said I've already studied said subject so I wasnt sure I needed it. And I also asked if there were any conditions and was told no.

There's a bit of a back story with a bit of a rubbish and absent manager who's quite clueless... also a little bullying and unfair treatment.

So I've just accepted a new job which unluckily I was offered while doing the course.

I resigned and have now been asked by literally furious manager to pay back the money or face legal action.

It would be easier for the sake of peace to pay back but I would need to take it from my mortgage.

One friend advised me to pay it back for peace. Another advised me to no way pay it back and go to Citizens Advice.

I have no idea. AIBU to walk away without paying (and face legal action)... or should I just take the hit and pay?

OP posts:
Original poster
Hellomumsne · 27/11/2019 12:28

I just called ACAS and was informed that asking me to pay the money back is unlawful if it's not in my contract and there's no signed agreement.

Likewise, deducting or witholding my final salary is also unlawful, as is deducting my remaining annual leave (or not paying for it).

They also advised me to get advice from Citizens advice in case they take it further. I'd rather not go to court but it completely depends on the employer... But with no signed agreement or contract details on that, hopefully they won't pursue it.

I don't feel great about it at all but it's just a very awkward coincidence unfortunately. When I got the offer my heart dropped a bit (and fluttered a bit! 😀) because I knew there's no easy way of explaining that.

OP posts:
Original poster
Hellomumsne · 27/11/2019 12:30

Now I just need to figure out how to ahem, pass this information on... I'm expecting a fairly hellish last month now which is unfortunate as I wanted to leave on a positive note.

OP posts:
DarlingNikita · 27/11/2019 12:35

Just reply to HR's email politely and factually: 'I've sought clarification on this from ACAS and they have advised that I'm under no legal obligation to pay the money back. Thanks and fuck off best wishes, Hellomumsne.'

I wouldn't mention the possibility of them deducting or withholding your final salary or annual leave. They may well realise that you're serious and that, if you haven't already sought advice on that, you will do so if they try it on. If they've any sense (??!!?) they'll back down now.

Dixiechickonhols · 27/11/2019 13:12

Glad ACAS have confirmed. I’d email them in line with your first 2 paragraphs above and say you have taken advice from ACAS. That should be end of matter if they are sensible.
It’s their decision not to have it in contract or sign an agreement.

Pantalaimon88 · 27/11/2019 13:18

When I did a work course, I had to sign a separate contract stating that I agreed to pay the fees back if I left the company within 2 years. If they never got you to sign anything, they don’t have a leg to stand on.

Thefaceofboe · 27/11/2019 13:43

Hi OP. My current work said the same to a girl who just left, said she had to pay back her first aid training etc etc because she left before the end of the her probation, but she asked to see the contract which states this and they backed down! Obviously chancing their luck

HaudYerWheeshtYaWeeBellend · 27/11/2019 13:48

If no contract has been signed then you are under no contractual obligation to repaid the money and by them threatening and intimidating you they are being unlawful.

CleanAndPaidFor · 27/11/2019 14:16

Excellent. Well done OP. Just send an email to the boss, copying HR in..

" This issue has been causing me considerable stress as it is not a small amount of money. I have sought legal advice though ACAS, and been advised that asking me to pay back the money is unlawful. Unless you can show me the evidence in my contact to the contrary I shall consider that matter closed in order that we may all put it to one side and move on for the remaining period of my notice."

Hingeandbracket · 27/11/2019 15:02

A wee bit amused by some of the "oh, your poor employer" wringing of hands in some comments
I am not amused - this forelock-tugging race to the bottom mentality is why it’s so hard to get a decent job !!

BlueJava · 27/11/2019 15:09

I think the owner is upset - firstly someone resigned and didn't want the course, then you did the course and then resigned! So they are feeling a bit sore! Unless it's in your contract or you signed something separate to say you were liable then I don't believe you have to pay. But you need good legal advice on your side. Please remember to have all evidence and an email trail kept on your private PC/area so you can access it incase you get access cut at work. You may need the evidence if they don't pay you later.

Frenchw1fe · 27/11/2019 15:10

These sort of expenses are part and parcel of having staff. Unless they have something in writing to say you have to pay the course fees back if you leave within a certain time I doubt if they can enforce payment.
You could get an hour with a solicitor who deals with this and get him to send a letter for you refuting any debt.
Personally I think they’re trying it on.

LadyGuffers · 27/11/2019 15:29

A wee bit amused by some of the "oh, your poor employer" wringing of hands in some comments

They are daft, imo. An employment contract is just that, a business contract. You both must abide by those terms and the law. If something is important to either party then they should include it in the terms.

It's a bit stupid not to include a term and then expect the other party to abide by it anyway, just because you want them to.

HollowTalk · 27/11/2019 18:48

I also self funded another course that they said they wanted me to do (and used annual leave to do it). That was several hundred pounds and also completely unrelated to my role.

That sounds crazy! Why would you do that?

daisychain01 · 27/11/2019 20:48

It was hardly a 'coincidence' that you booked and then took the course but meanwhile accepted a job offer. That must have involved some weeks of applications, attending interview, receiving the job offer etc, meanwhile taking on £4,500 worth of training.

It is nothing to do with a 'race to the bottom' as stated upthread. There is nothing wrong in applying for and getting a new job to improve your career. It's just a bit shabby knowingly signing your employer up for a significant training expense, when all along you'd already set your intention to move elsewhere.

Havaina · 27/11/2019 20:51

Don’t pay them a penny!

littlekerry8 · 28/11/2019 17:30

Unless it states in your contract of employment or company handbook specifically regarding repaying training and you have not signed a training agreement they cant make you pay this back,they would struggle to enforce this in court

Mrspenfold123 · 28/11/2019 17:32

If they try to withhold I can thoroughly recommend:
www.monacosolicitors.co.uk
They’ll probably give you some guidance over the phone in the first case too.

Oscarsdaddy · 28/11/2019 17:40

You need to go to Citizens Advice to see exactly where you stand and be sure to have your employment contract with you

In the meantime don’t pay a penny or give any indication that you accept liability

sussexman · 28/11/2019 17:45

Having read through a few of the pages my thoughts are:

  1. You should get a lawyer to look at your contract terms (possibly your new employer might be prepared to do this)
  2. If they haven't specified a "payback" clause then that's their lookout not yours. The experience with "We booked it for employee X, but she left so how about you go" suggests they haven't really thought this through.

To be honest, I'd expect you to be legally bound to pay it back and that this might be a negotiation with your new employer. What the contract says is what counts though.

icannotremember · 28/11/2019 17:45

Legally you're fine, but there's no way you hadn't applied for new jobs etc before you went on that course, so morally I think you're a bit off.

Brefugee · 28/11/2019 17:46

Are you in a union?
don't pay it. If you have nothing in writing what are they going to do?

Liketoshop · 28/11/2019 17:49

Bullying management

havingtochangeusernameagain · 28/11/2019 17:52

Legally you're fine, but there's no way you hadn't applied for new jobs etc before you went on that course, so morally I think you're a bit off

The OP was more or less told to go on the course, it wasn't something she asked her employer to fund for her.

And as for "morality" - employers rarely show any morals. Employees are expendable.

dusky777 · 28/11/2019 17:56

My husband was in a similar situation years ago, he was asked to go on a course so that he could tech the course to new and existing staff when required. Out of the blue he was offered his prefect job a few months later and took it. His boss tried to keep him but the prospect at the new job out weighed staying with them....even with a pay rise and perks. Hubby was very apologetic about the course but his boss just said it's one if those things. He didn't have to pay anything back and left with a glowing reference and told if things didnt work out he was welcome back. He doesnt regret taking the new job and is still there 14 years later. Unless you signed something I cant see how they can make you pay it back.

Jetstream · 28/11/2019 17:57

Of course they are angry, they paid for a course in good faith. Now a different company is going to benefit from it.