I just resigned! AIBU to not pay for work course before leaving

[Hellomumsne]

I have a dilemma I could use some help with.

My job offered for me to go on a very expensive (£4500) course a few months ago. They actually persuaded me to do it and said they'd love for me to have the chance...

At the time I said I've already studied said subject so I wasnt sure I needed it. And I also asked if there were any conditions and was told no.

There's a bit of a back story with a bit of a rubbish and absent manager who's quite clueless... also a little bullying and unfair treatment.

So I've just accepted a new job which unluckily I was offered while doing the course.

I resigned and have now been asked by literally furious manager to pay back the money or face legal action.

It would be easier for the sake of peace to pay back but I would need to take it from my mortgage.

One friend advised me to pay it back for peace. Another advised me to no way pay it back and go to Citizens Advice.

I have no idea. AIBU to walk away without paying (and face legal action)... or should I just take the hit and pay?

[ToftyAC]

If it doesn’t state training costs implicitly and you’ve signed nothing extra about it then they probably don’t have a leg to stand on as the wording is too vague, but it can be a grey area. I had similar with a former employer. Like you, I asked pre course, but asked by email and there was never a response. I didn’t pay and they didn’t pursue. Best speak to ACAS or get a bit of free, preliminary legal advice.

[Mummyrowland]

Yabu if in contract if not then tough it's their fault

[Spaceshiphaslanded]

Not much help now, but if you ever move on in future - get your new jobs contract to have a joining bonus that covers you for this sort of stuff. Hope you get it sorted x

[DuckbilledSplatterPuff]

Well done for getting more info from ACAS, and I hope you get a chance to get CAB advice too as they suggested.
Did you also mention the bullying and mismanagement issues you raised in your original post? Because the addtional details you mention, eg taking away key parts of your role without discussion, and the subsequent promoting a less experienced person as your boss etc and then pressurising you to take a very expensive conference whilst confirming it has nothing to do with the role they want you to continue doing.. would not present them in a good light. Plus previously makng you pay for training and use your holiday allowance to attend.
Its almost as if they couldn't get a full refund on the conference, realised that their treatment of you wasn't great and thought they may as well make you do the course to make their treatment of you look better by saying they'd provided training and to pressurise you into not quitting as apparently several people have.
I am not an expert on the legalities, and I don't know the full facts but it does sound like a hostile work environment and would make them look bad. You should certaintly also present this information to your legal advisor.
Well done in getting your new job.

[Scarriff]

From a HR point of view its reasonable to ask for a refund. From a company point of view its sneaky to be looking for a new job while taking the course which they see as a generous perk. From a legal point of view, the term losses must be repaid seems ambigious. Id check the wording with an employment lawyer if you can find a cheap one. And you might make them an offer. Say 25%. Its a difficult situation for you I can see that. But try to think of the future CV and references. Be pragmatic.

[DelphiniumBlue]

There won't be much of a loss, this would be tax deductible for the company. And if the y pressurized you into going when you didn't really need it, could it be that they actually planned it for someone else who didn't take them up on it?

[Hellomumsne]

Thanks for your advice... I'm still reading through. They have been quiet about this for a couple of days but then my manager sent me an email ccing in the CEO, accusing me of lying about asking if there were conditions attached.

So I've been both threatened and accused of lying which is almost funny and just makes me more relieved to be leaving.

I wasn't going to engage at all but then sent an email saying sorry he feels the need to say that and I was very clear in asking if there were conditions... I also reminded them I've already studied the subject so didn't need it professionally, although it was nice to have.

And then later last night I got another email from HR not mentioning the legal threats and now asking me for 50% of the money instead of the full amount.

But £800 of the £4500 was actually VAT which I think they can get back anyway?

I still have mixed feelings so will probably think about it over the weekend.

In a way, it would be good to just pay for the sake of keeping some peace. But on the other hand, having been threatened and the fact that I didn't ask for this training or need it... plus the fact that my manager has been pretty terrible. (And on top of that they just promoted a colleague of mine who they are aware was a bully to be my new boss.)... that all makes me just want to walk away.

Hmm, hopefully the weekend will bring some clarity.

I couldn't get through to Citizens Advice earlier in the week, so will also try them again today.

Thank you everyone. I really appreciate all of your comments.

[CokeAndCrispsAndDip]

I think that if they had a legal standing to ask you pay it back then yes, consider paying. But now they have been vile and lied to you I would stand your ground and not pay. You can get through this as you know you're leaving. I'd even be tempted to get signed off for the last week or 2 for stress. Make sure you have all correspondence copied and your belongings and go. I think you would be forever annoyed with yourself if you paid, you told them you didnt need it and they insisted. Therefore they take the hit

[burnoutbabe]

I am finding it amusing, all these people who say you are wrong to attend training courses when job seeking.
If told by your bosss to attend, how does one say no? you could be job seeking for months without success. And lose any chance of any promotion at current place if they know you are leaving (at best)

Everywhere i have worked, if you go on a training course that is repayable, you have to sign a specific agreement related to that course with repayment terms laid out. Its not caught by coverall parts of the contract about "repaying losses"

[Hellomumsne]

If there had been any type if repayment agreement, I would never have accepted the course offer as I wouldn't have wanted to be tied to a role that was already problematic at that point. Plus I'd already trained in that area so was slightly bemused at why they offered it to me but wanted to show positivity and willingness to follow their advice. Especially in light of the fact I knew they were upset that the other girl turned down the chance and effectively labelled her as having a bad attitude as a result.

[Hellomumsne]

And yes I had no idea about how long it might take to get another role. I wasn't looking for a new job when the course was booked... and by the time it came round, I considered pulling out but then modules were ones I chose personally and I also didn't have a job offer at that point. The role I actually got had about 400 applicants according to LinkedIn so I wasn't really expecting an offer.

[NurseButtercup]

And then later last night I got another email from HR not mentioning the legal threats and now asking me for 50% of the money instead of the full amount.

I suspect they have no legal standing if they are now adopting this approach (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). Based upon the additional background information you've shared about the bullying and harassment you've endured, I wouldn't pay.

[DarlingNikita]

In a way, it would be good to just pay for the sake of keeping some peace.
No fucking way! They've threatened you and accused you of lying. Speak to an employment solicitor.

[BlackKittyKat]

I very much doubt you can leave on "good terms" now anyway, as they sound like the type of people to hold this against you if you do leave, so you've got nothing to gain from paying them.
If I was in your shoes, I wouldn't be paying.

[DuckbilledSplatterPuff]

"And on top of that they just promoted a colleague of mine who they are aware was a bully to be my new boss"
I'm no legal expert but it would be worth asking someone who is whether this is an attempt at constructive dismissal. Do you have a record of having complained about this person? What action did they take to re educate him, or disipline him before putting him in a position of authority over you. This would make them look very bad in a legal setting
Don't pay these people a penny - just to be nice or placate them or get rid of them. You will be gone soon. Only pay if it is independently confirmed you are legally obliged to.
If they are harassing you during your notice period, check with Acas and see if you can get signed off due to stress or use up remaining unused holiday as part of your notice period. Good luck and congratulations on your new role. sounds like it will be much much better than this one.

[dreichthanksgiving]

OP, don't agree to pay half back.
This is still a significant amount of money for a course you didn't ask to do and didn't particularly want to do.
They may want this money back but they cannot get it, it is that simple. They are completely out of order trying to insist on this.
Personally I would resend the ACAS information which is very clear stating that you will not personally be covering the costs related to this course.
This is the cost of a decent holiday for you and I cannot see what they have done to deserve this from you.

[messolini9]

And then later last night I got another email from HR not mentioning the legal threats and now asking me for 50% of the money instead of the full amount

Soembody at work is having misgivings. They have just weakened their position with this. Stick to your guns as long as you can OP - they may well end up writing it off.

[GoldishLeafs]

This happened to me. Unless you signed some sort of legal agreement, don't pay it back and just block their number. But just be warned you won't be getting a reference from this employer.

[daisychain01]

The more you've updated, the more unreasonable they sound.

I wouldn't invest money on a solicitor, the ACAS advice should be all you need to play back to your employer.

If it isn't covered contractually, then summarise to them all the circumstances and justification of how they effectively persuaded you to attend the course against your better judgement (< use these words), that should cover the situation, including the potential for you to take the matter further if they deduct the money unlawfully from your final salary without your consent.

They are playing hardball. Stand your ground.

If they play silly bs regarding a reference, under the circumstances you describe, you can legitimately explain the 'unfortunate circumstances' of the training course to your future employer, but only give them very high level information, and only if absolutely necessary.

[meredithgrey1]

Them accusing you of lying isn't really a relevant point for them to focus on. If there were conditions attached it was on them to tell you, not on you you ask. They can't retrospectively say "we wanted you to pay this back and it's your fault for not asking us this."

[dreichthanksgiving]

Legally they cannot withhold a reference.
A lot of companies only give a basic reference of facts, start, finish, reason for leaving.

[cannockcandy]

They stated no conditions therefore you dont have to pay it back. Unless it states you do in your contract. Let them try to take you to court and then bring up your reasons for wanting to leave the company xx

[msmith501]

They can only take money from your salary with your permission. Write to them and state that you do not give your permission.

Secondly, you said you didn't need the course but thy insisted as they felt it was of ultimate benefit to them - but not to you as you have already done that training or similar. By doing so, thy have made the course mandatory and as a result not an optional one that you have requested. No way should you pay for this.

[Buzb]

This happened to someone I worked with and they left without paying for their course nothing happened as legal costs too high for either parties to take action I'd definitely move on! It has also happened with someone else that left and they liked him so much they wavered any charge!! It proves it's discretionary on their part

[daisychain01]

Legally they cannot withhold a reference.

@dreichthanksgiving this is simply not true. If an employer declined to respond to a request for a reference, the law is not there to police them and force them to state negatives if they take the decision not to. They have to be truthful, and therein lies the rub.

It is often perceived to be a message in itself - declining to give a reference can indicate they have avoided saying anything negative. Many companies don't want to get into the vagaries of a subsequent dispute about negatives they've written.