I just resigned! AIBU to not pay for work course before leaving

[Hellomumsne]

I have a dilemma I could use some help with.

My job offered for me to go on a very expensive (£4500) course a few months ago. They actually persuaded me to do it and said they'd love for me to have the chance...

At the time I said I've already studied said subject so I wasnt sure I needed it. And I also asked if there were any conditions and was told no.

There's a bit of a back story with a bit of a rubbish and absent manager who's quite clueless... also a little bullying and unfair treatment.

So I've just accepted a new job which unluckily I was offered while doing the course.

I resigned and have now been asked by literally furious manager to pay back the money or face legal action.

It would be easier for the sake of peace to pay back but I would need to take it from my mortgage.

One friend advised me to pay it back for peace. Another advised me to no way pay it back and go to Citizens Advice.

I have no idea. AIBU to walk away without paying (and face legal action)... or should I just take the hit and pay?

[Devora13]

I would expect there to be an agreement specific to funding the training, e.g. if you leave employment within 12 months of completion, you will be expected to pay back x %. Unless specified otherwise, provision of this type of training would be unlikely to form part of your employment contract and should be subject to a separate arrangement
I would state that you were coerced (bullied) into taking the training, and can demonstrate it was unnecessary as you already have a relevant qualification in said subject. If there is backstory, do a Subject Access Request asking for anything they have in writing in relation to your employment. State you will not accept an unlawful deduction from your salary, and should they decide to take action against you, you will defend on the basis that you were assured there would be no conditions attached to you taking a course you had specifically said you didn't wish to take. That would be my position (and I have been in management, HR, union and personal situations in such situations) based on what little I know of your situation.

[DuckbilledSplatterPuff]

@Tistheseason17 . Thank you. Just to say that my comments were directed at the company's behaviour, sorry if that didn't come across, and of course you are entitled to your views. Best wishes

[MachineBee]

@DuckBilledSplatterPuff summarises the whole situation brilliantly. OP I’d use this as the framework for an email back to them setting out the reasons you will not be paying the money back.

Enjoy your new job.

[GnomeDePlume]

Training contracts may contain requirement to repay training costs but I have never come across a normal employment contract with this stipulation.

I see nothing immoral in leaving shortly after a training course, especially one which the OP didnt seek out. Employers are owed no more and no less loyalty than they show their employees.

[Tistheseason17]

@DuckbilledSplatterPuff - I have rtft thanks.

OP could have said no to the course - she is an adult and plenty of MN posters will tell people that No is a full sentence.
We simply have differing views. Best wishes

[DuckbilledSplatterPuff]

@Tistheseason17.. The OP was pressurised into accepting the course by her employer in April, when the course was turned down by another employee who subsequently left. How could she knew she'd be resigning to take another job in November?
She was not job hunting at that time. But when she did start job hunting there were over 200 applicants for the job she was eventually offered and she applied for practice, thinking the chances of getting it were very slim. She was offered the job whilst on the course.
The course was not relevant to her work, she'd already had similar training and told them so, she asked if the course topic would become part of her work and was told no. She asked very clearly if there were any conditions to accepting the course and they said no but then have since accused her of lying.
At the same time, there were other issues such as being passed over for promotion, and parts of her job being handed off to others without discussion - so there was good reason to worry about job insecurity - and a less qualified member of staff she'd previously told them had bullied her was appointed as her direct boss.
Given the circumstances, I don't think the employer would win the morality argument.

[Tistheseason17]

Most places have a policy for staff training fees where you need to pay back a proportion of the cost based on how long after the training you leave. You resigned the following week. You knew you were looking for another job and this was a possibility.
Morally, I could not do this, myself. Lots of PPs say it's ok as it's not in your contract... well... if that makes it better...

[niugboo]

@marchez not true. Most employment contracts state clearly that you will be expected to reimburse training costs if you leave within a certain timeframe. Or don’t go due to resigning if it’s not refundable.

[GnomeDePlume]

@Hellomumsne dont offer part payment to keep the peace. Honestly, it will just be money down the drain as the manager will simply find something else to be angry about. You making a payment would be seen by the manager as a tacit admission of wrongdoing leaving to vulnerable to more blaming (for anything from the printer not working to the price of fish)

Remember that in a very short time you will be walking out for the last time and shaking the dust of the place out of your shoes.

It probably depends on the industry. All companies I have worked for had a policy of not giving personal references. Less trouble all round.

[dreichthanksgiving]

You are right daisy, I've only worked for large companies and they always give basic references regardless.
But you are right they could refuse to give to one although a brief note stating dates worked and reason for leaving is pretty normal.

[daisychain01]

Legally they cannot withhold a reference.

@dreichthanksgiving this is simply not true. If an employer declined to respond to a request for a reference, the law is not there to police them and force them to state negatives if they take the decision not to. They have to be truthful, and therein lies the rub.

It is often perceived to be a message in itself - declining to give a reference can indicate they have avoided saying anything negative. Many companies don't want to get into the vagaries of a subsequent dispute about negatives they've written.

[Buzb]

This happened to someone I worked with and they left without paying for their course nothing happened as legal costs too high for either parties to take action I'd definitely move on! It has also happened with someone else that left and they liked him so much they wavered any charge!! It proves it's discretionary on their part

[msmith501]

They can only take money from your salary with your permission. Write to them and state that you do not give your permission.

Secondly, you said you didn't need the course but thy insisted as they felt it was of ultimate benefit to them - but not to you as you have already done that training or similar. By doing so, thy have made the course mandatory and as a result not an optional one that you have requested. No way should you pay for this.

[cannockcandy]

They stated no conditions therefore you dont have to pay it back. Unless it states you do in your contract. Let them try to take you to court and then bring up your reasons for wanting to leave the company xx

[dreichthanksgiving]

Legally they cannot withhold a reference.
A lot of companies only give a basic reference of facts, start, finish, reason for leaving.

[meredithgrey1]

Them accusing you of lying isn't really a relevant point for them to focus on. If there were conditions attached it was on them to tell you, not on you you ask. They can't retrospectively say "we wanted you to pay this back and it's your fault for not asking us this."

[daisychain01]

The more you've updated, the more unreasonable they sound.

I wouldn't invest money on a solicitor, the ACAS advice should be all you need to play back to your employer.

If it isn't covered contractually, then summarise to them all the circumstances and justification of how they effectively persuaded you to attend the course against your better judgement (< use these words), that should cover the situation, including the potential for you to take the matter further if they deduct the money unlawfully from your final salary without your consent.

They are playing hardball. Stand your ground.

If they play silly bs regarding a reference, under the circumstances you describe, you can legitimately explain the 'unfortunate circumstances' of the training course to your future employer, but only give them very high level information, and only if absolutely necessary.

[GoldishLeafs]

This happened to me. Unless you signed some sort of legal agreement, don't pay it back and just block their number. But just be warned you won't be getting a reference from this employer.

[messolini9]

And then later last night I got another email from HR not mentioning the legal threats and now asking me for 50% of the money instead of the full amount

Soembody at work is having misgivings. They have just weakened their position with this. Stick to your guns as long as you can OP - they may well end up writing it off.

[dreichthanksgiving]

OP, don't agree to pay half back.
This is still a significant amount of money for a course you didn't ask to do and didn't particularly want to do.
They may want this money back but they cannot get it, it is that simple. They are completely out of order trying to insist on this.
Personally I would resend the ACAS information which is very clear stating that you will not personally be covering the costs related to this course.
This is the cost of a decent holiday for you and I cannot see what they have done to deserve this from you.

[DuckbilledSplatterPuff]

"And on top of that they just promoted a colleague of mine who they are aware was a bully to be my new boss"
I'm no legal expert but it would be worth asking someone who is whether this is an attempt at constructive dismissal. Do you have a record of having complained about this person? What action did they take to re educate him, or disipline him before putting him in a position of authority over you. This would make them look very bad in a legal setting
Don't pay these people a penny - just to be nice or placate them or get rid of them. You will be gone soon. Only pay if it is independently confirmed you are legally obliged to.
If they are harassing you during your notice period, check with Acas and see if you can get signed off due to stress or use up remaining unused holiday as part of your notice period. Good luck and congratulations on your new role. sounds like it will be much much better than this one.

[BlackKittyKat]

I very much doubt you can leave on "good terms" now anyway, as they sound like the type of people to hold this against you if you do leave, so you've got nothing to gain from paying them.
If I was in your shoes, I wouldn't be paying.

[DarlingNikita]

In a way, it would be good to just pay for the sake of keeping some peace.
No fucking way! They've threatened you and accused you of lying. Speak to an employment solicitor.

[NurseButtercup]

And then later last night I got another email from HR not mentioning the legal threats and now asking me for 50% of the money instead of the full amount.

I suspect they have no legal standing if they are now adopting this approach (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). Based upon the additional background information you've shared about the bullying and harassment you've endured, I wouldn't pay.

[Hellomumsne]

And yes I had no idea about how long it might take to get another role. I wasn't looking for a new job when the course was booked... and by the time it came round, I considered pulling out but then modules were ones I chose personally and I also didn't have a job offer at that point. The role I actually got had about 400 applicants according to LinkedIn so I wasn't really expecting an offer.