I just resigned! AIBU to not pay for work course before leaving

[Hellomumsne]

I have a dilemma I could use some help with.

My job offered for me to go on a very expensive (£4500) course a few months ago. They actually persuaded me to do it and said they'd love for me to have the chance...

At the time I said I've already studied said subject so I wasnt sure I needed it. And I also asked if there were any conditions and was told no.

There's a bit of a back story with a bit of a rubbish and absent manager who's quite clueless... also a little bullying and unfair treatment.

So I've just accepted a new job which unluckily I was offered while doing the course.

I resigned and have now been asked by literally furious manager to pay back the money or face legal action.

It would be easier for the sake of peace to pay back but I would need to take it from my mortgage.

One friend advised me to pay it back for peace. Another advised me to no way pay it back and go to Citizens Advice.

I have no idea. AIBU to walk away without paying (and face legal action)... or should I just take the hit and pay?

[Passthecherrycoke]

It’s not a loss because they couldn’t presumably expect any monetary return from the course- OP not staying doesn’t make it a loss. They would’ve continued paying her she would’ve cost them more

[Autumntoowet]

Rubbish.
My old employer paid for a course. They informed me in writing that should I leave the company within 2 years I should pay them back.
Lots of my colleagues did the same. Some of the courses were very expensive, mine was about £2000 as I didn’t want to risk it just in case I left.
We were all informed. And signed the papers for it.
If they can’t be bothered doing things properly then not on you.

[MummytoCSJH]

Can't believe people saying OP is bad for leaving. It doesn't matter how it 'looks' or if the manager/owner is furious. Legal rights are what matter. The course was booked months ago, the OP may not have been looking for new jobs at that point, there have been significant changes at work which mean the OP no longer wants her position and the job was only offered to her last week. Not much she could've done really

[Strictly1972]

I wouldn’t unless I had signed something or it might affect my career in the future (ie if I might want to go back to the company or they might bad mouth me).

[DarlingNikita]

They're very unprofessional being 'furious'. Don't do a thing until you've had ACAS and/or legal advice.

[Hellomumsne]

Hi all, I'm at work so catching up on comments. The course wasn't originally booked for my colleague who left. She was offered a course on that subject and offered to pick the course herself. She declined and left and the owner was very upset and subsequently offered the same to me, so I felt obliged to accept to show I had a positive attitude and was willing to learn new skills (even though I was very clear with them that I already have these skills... I was hired by another manager who left and my new manager never bothered to look at my CV or learn about my skillset)... So I also was just offered a course in that subject and allowed to pick the actual course myself. I ran my choice back to them and they approved it. But face to face I asked if they wanted me to change my job focus towards this subject and they said no.

I also self funded another course that they said they wanted me to do (and used annual leave to do it). That was several hundred pounds and also completely unrelated to my role. I only self funded that because I felt very guilty about the cost of the first course.

[Devereux1]

I don't believe your employer can do anything. I can see why they think it's unfair, but part of their risk assessment should have been whether it was worth sending you on that course, your commitment to them and how to apply the training afterwards.

I know of big corps that put it in writing that should the employee leave within a set period after expensive training, they must pay the training back, but it must be put in writing as I understand it.

Call citizens advice or get a free half hour with a lawyer if that's available.

[Batqueen]

I prepare training agreements as part of my job. I would only ever sign people into an agreement for training that they, not the company had requested and the maximum period would be two years on a sliding scale. Yes it’s annoying when someone quits the week after training but it’s business, not personal (something employers remember easily enough themselves when it’s time for redundancies but forget when their employees act that way).

[eddielizzard]

They sound unprofessional and incompetent. How much longer do you have left of your notice period?

[NoWayNoHow]

We had someone resign shortly after completing a 2 year qualification that we funded and, because she never sent back her signed agreement, we had to let her walk away from the role when she owed us just over £3k.

I think there's a very big difference between a training course and a qualification, and even in the case of funding your studies, most organisations require you to sign separate paperwork confirming how you will pay the organisation back if you leave.

Your organisation are upset by how much they've spent training you, but it's no different to any other Learning & Development costs they have paid during the course of your employment and legally they don't have a leg to stand on.

[amusedbush]

My work paid 50% of my undergrad degree and they made it very clear in writing that I was liable for 100% of the money if I left within a year of graduation, and then 50% of the money for another year after that.

If you haven't signed anything and it's not in your contract then don't pay a penny. When I asked hypothetically whether they could arrest my salary if I left the finance department said technically yes but it would be unlikely to happen due to duty of care, leaving someone in financial difficulty, the PR ramifications if people found out...

[Roussette]

OP.... regarding your last post... but did you at that point think about leaving???

Can't believe people saying OP is bad for leaving
I'm not saying that, but I am saying it's wrong to go on a £4,500 course funded by your company if you are applying for other jobs.

[SoxiFodoujUmed]

Applying for other jobs can take years to achieve success. Especially if you are a specialist in a fairly niche area and are limited as to which employers you can apply to if other commitments mean you are restricted to one geographical area.

It is unreasonable to expect anyone to choose to be labeled as "don't bother, she'll be leaving soon" until the moment they have a job offer in writing in their possession. Up until that moment, they should behave exactly as they would do if they had no intention of ever leaving.

OP did not do anything wrong. She expressed a mild unwillingness to do the course and was put in a position where it would have seemed rude to refuse so couldn't express that more strongly. She asked whether she would be taking on any obligation by accepting and if the company wanted to tie her in, that was the point at which they could have said "actually if you do this course we expect you to stay for 3 years or repay the course" - they didn't do so, and they can't retrospectively claim that the OP should act as if they did.

[WelshCountryBumpkin]

Without a signed agreement, or anything written into your contract, the Company has no leg to stand on. This is their error, and they are now clearly trying to mitigate the cost by requesting you pay, and hoping you do so in naivety.

If they were to proceed and deduct it from your wages then this could potentially be considered an unfair deduction of wages.

As posters have said, speak to ACAS in any case. Then you may want to send the company a formal email advising that 'you will not be paying back the cost of the course, as you are under no contractual obligation to do so, and if they proceed and make any deduction from your wages this will be considered unlawful and you will have no choice but to take legal action'. ACAS may advise conciliation which they would lead and would involve them liaising directly with the company.

I'm in HR and over the years have taken action against employees for not paying owed money, but I would never advise doing this without a clear and signed agreement with the employee.

[Hellomumsne]

@Rousette the course was booked a few months ago and they sent an invoice. I didn't get a confirmation after that so actually assumed it might not have been paid afterall and so kept fairly quiet about it in the following months in the hope it might have been forgotten about.

But then I double checked and the office manager said it had been paid for.

I wasn't actively applying for jobs and wanted to make it work. I've been in the role for only a year and don't have a job description due to the fact there have been several upheavals with my own manager leaving and two HR managers leaving. And I was promoted to the role of someone who was fired half way into the year.
However, several times over year, I've seen jobs advertised that include parts of my role so have had a lot of worries about my job security. Then, a new chap with just one years experience started claiming parts of my role and has now been made my boss.

I have asked both HR and my manager for clarity and never got it... I'm overqualified and undervalued for my role anyway, so its time to cut my losses and move on.

But that's life. The threats yesterday were a surprise and left me a bit shaken to be honest. But yes, it's business.

[Hellomumsne]

So yes i thought about leaving but tried to still make it work even until the point I handed in my notice. The chap with no experience being promoted and given parts of my role that I'm trained and experienced in, was the final straw for realising the role isn't going anywhere.

[Hellomumsne]

And yes, I thought, even if I apply for roles, it could be months of a year before I get one... so i reasoned i might as well attend. But it turns out other companies think I'm worth hiring!
References aren't an issue as my manager who left before gave me a great one already, thankfully!

[Roussette]

Fair enough Hello thank you for clarifying.

[Hingeandbracket]

but I am saying it's wrong to go on a £4,500 course funded by your company if you are applying for other jobs.

What a crock.

OP could hardly say “I am not going on that course as I am trying to get another job”

[Roussette]

She said she could've got out of it if she wanted but felt she had to go. But the OP has explained the timeline now anyway

[User342109097569098]

Don’t pay- let them take you to court

[Crunchymum]

Have you called ACAS yet?

[wibdib]

The other place you could get advice from is if you have legal advice on your home insurance (or car insurance or through a bank account etc etc) - it’s free as you’ve already paid for it.

[cannycat20]

A wee bit amused by some of the "oh, your poor employer" wringing of hands in some comments. In some industries and locations, when job offers come up, you have to snatch them with both hands, however inconvenient that might be for business owners who haven't managed to get proper procedures in place and can't separate personal feelings from pure business like some of the people I worked with in my 20s and 30s (mainly in SMEs).

On this occasion the OP is leaving for work purposes; would some of the comments she's had be less harsh if she were leaving suddenly for illness, or to look after a relative? And then in some parts of the civil service and other industries, when you apply for a new job, the referencing and security vetting can take up to a year so you might not always know when a firm job offer is going to be sent to you.

And it was a (pricey) conference, not a course. At presumably £1K per day per delegate (assuming 4 days) that's some conference - I don't even want to guess what field of work it's in or what the location was! You can almost do some proper postgrad qualifications for that, with letters after your name, and a certificate, and a floppy felt hat and gown and everything at the end....

I know you've said that the Office Manager confirmed the money was paid but I'd be tempted to double check with the company; I also have a strong suspicion, as someone else said, that your company would probably have been penalised anyway if they hadn't sent someone else on that course.

If your current company has a bit of a problem with people leaving suddenly and regularly, and high levels of sickness, they might want to look at why?

I'm loving this world where people can predict the future so they would never suddenly leave a job where they'd been sent on a training course in the recent past - can I have one of them there crystal balls please?!

Oh, and as someone else said, Human Remains (sorry, any HR people, I know some of you ARE very good, but really good HR people are as rare as hen's teeth in my experience...) are NOT on your side. They are there to enforce the employer's point of view and try to make sure aforesaid employer does not end up in front of a tribunal. And my understanding is that they did not make you sign any agreement to pay the money back in the event of you leaving within a certain timeframe.

On a serious note, I know lots of people (including me) have suggested ACAS, and in my experience they really are pretty helpful.