How dare they?

[astralweaks]

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/nov/16/a-letter-to-our-neighbours-with-a-baby

The above is in today’s Guardian. Thoughts?
I think the author and his partner have shown remarkable restraint and been far too polite.

He sleeps in our bedroom too and when he cries in the night, I close the window so the sound doesn’t carry far enough to be heard loudly outside the house. I do the same during the day and he’s with me in the living room.

Maybe their house is not soundproofed well, I think the noise is coming through the walls, closing the windows won't make a difference.

You don't put the baby above or next to your neighbours' bedroom (or put a tv on the partition wall), you take your toddler outside enough so he is happy to play quietly inside for the short time he's there. Plonking them in front of the tv doesn't count as quiet time.

As people have already said, you may have no choice on which room to use, and with a terrace house then all rooms probably have neighbours on the other side. As for taking them outside enough-WTF? How will that help if the baby is crying in the night because they are hungry/teething or any of the other reasons that babies cry.

What an absolute twat the author is. Fuck off and get some earplugs! Honestly what does he actually expect the neighbours to do, it doesn’t sound like they left the baby to cry out - they were already dealing with it. Babies are just a part of life and part of society so either suck it up or get his own solution like ear plugs or move himself into somewhere more isolated.

I know some people's thought process is a bit slower, but do you really need to have it spell out to you?

But also...

I am amazed that basic manners are disappearing

😂😂😂

You don't put the baby above or next to your neighbours' bedroom (or put a tv on the partition wall)
This is literally unavoidable in a lot of flats. If there is a second bedroom in a terrace or semi then it may not be big enough to house a double or king bed and therefore the baby may need to be next to a partition wall. If there are multiple children then logistics may dictate that a baby or toddler is next to a partition wall.

you take your toddler outside enough so he is happy to play quietly inside for the short time he's there
So stay out of your own home for most of the time? That's your solution?

If you don't want to be woken by babies, I recommend buying a detached house

We live in a pre WW1 terrace, you can hear arguing, kids being loud, banging about, DIY etc. Both bedrooms are next to bedrooms. We cope with noise from both sides like I'm sure they cope with noise from us. Part and parcel of living cheek by jowl.

The author of this sounds like one of those tutty, sniffy, curled lip knobheads who thinks the world should revolve around them and their choices.

(that was supposed to be a sarcastic slow handclap response not a rapturous endorsing round of applause... )

People on this thread are talking as if a detached house is a lifestyle choice. Like where should I move into, a terraced house or a detached house?
Back in the real world the choice is often a flat or a terraced house.

I don't think anybody thinks this. People are being a bit facetious, yes, but they are making the point that this is the reality. The only way to avoid noise associated with people, including children, is to move to a detached house with no close neighbours. Unless money is no object, then compromises have to be made when you buy a house. Living in close proximity with others is such a compromise for most people.

If I read it correctly, they never actually talked to the neighbours, asked if anything was ok or how they were doing, yet could hear the parents parenting in their own home so parents weren’t exactly leaving child to make as much noise as possible. The writer comes off just as entitled as they are trying to make the parents out to be in that letter. It was quite unnecessary and irrelevant imo to add child-free by choice.

We live in a newly built semi-detached and we can hear (quite faintly) our neighbours children who are actually around the same age as our two. We’ll hear faint crying and wouldn’t be sure whether it was ours or theirs but it was nothing that one would consider loud unless you’re the type to wake to a pin dropping on carpet. In our last much older house, we could hear our neighbour on the other side and her partner and they were adults. I often worried in the first few months if they could hear our baby and often made sure to get up quickly and put him back to sleep (he woke every 2-3 hours a night). It wasn’t until she saw baby and me that I relaxed, her saying she hadn’t realised that we had had a baby. He had been almost four months by then.

I do think there should be more detached housing and don’t understand how more can’t be built without costing an extra £50,000.

Totally unreasonable of the author.

And I’m genuinely baffled by those asserting we have a “child-worshipping” culture. We absolutely do not. The majority of the cuts over the last ten years have been to services and benefits aimed at children and young people - i.e Sure Start centres, child tax credits, educational maintenance allowance, cap on child benefit to two children. Young people under 24 cannot even claim housing benefit and we have millions of children growing up malnourished and in poverty - so please show me where this “child-worshipping culture is”. A lot of this is due to the individualistic, materialistic and selfish attitude which seems to predominate in the UK which is that children are a “lifestyle choice” rather than as valued members of society and literally the future population! I’ve lived abroad in Europe, Central and South America and never found anything like the negative and intolerant attitudes to children found in the UK. No wonder so many children in this country have mental health issues and are fucking miserable!

Does he think that the parents are making the baby cry in the night? He doesn't seem to understand that they'd rather this wasn't happening too, and is taking it personally.

Also, he's taking no responsibility for his anguish. He could insulate his own room, wear earplugs, change bedroom, or speak to the neighbours. But he prefers to whinge in a paper.

I saw this article and my first thought was what utter dicks they are. If they want to live in silence they shouldn’t have chosen a house with a single brick adjoining wall.

Also, noise isn’t unique to babies and toddlers. I know plenty of people who have had nightmare noisy neighbours who were all adults (video games at all hours, music, parties, hot tubs etc etc). At least with small children it’s not deliberate noise. What exactly do they expect parents to do? Put a pillow of the head of a crying baby?

The majority of the cuts over the last ten years have been to services and benefits aimed at children and young people - i.e Sure Start centres, child tax credits, educational maintenance allowance, cap on child benefit to two children.

The fact that these benefits even exist is evidence of the veneration of children and child-bearing in this country. The state is encouraging people to have children whether or not they can afford them on their earnings alone.

Young people under 24 cannot even claim housing benefit

Young people under 24 who'd be in a position to claim housing benefit are not, by any definition or stretch of the imagination "children". They're people who by virtue of attaining adulthood, are no longer venerated.

and we have millions of children growing up malnourished and in poverty

That's just one of the consequences of wealth inequality in this country. It has nothing to do with the cultural veneration of children. If the children are malnourished and impoverished, aside from cases of individual neglect and abuse, the parents will be too.

A lot of this is due to the individualistic, materialistic and selfish attitude which seems to predominate in the UK which is that children are a “lifestyle choice” rather than as valued members of society and literally the future population!

If we were suffering from an underpopulation problem, this would be a valid point. But we are suffering from the opposite. It is a choice to have children - it might be underpinned by biological urges, but it's essentially a selfish decision (as are most lifestyle choices - I am not criticising childbearing in particular).

He sounds a right dick, tbh.
Babies cry and are supposed to be in the same room as parents, how stupid.

What an utter knob the author of that letter sounds.
He moved to a house next door to a woman about to have a baby.
He is bothered by the noise.
He chooses not to mention this to the neighbour but silently seethe about it for three years, allowing it to effect his marriage and career.
He meanwhile does nothing himself to mitigate the noise (earplugs/insulation?) but gets angry because the new parents haven't ignored all guidance in preventing SIDS and moved the baby out of their room (in order to solve a problem they don't even know exists).

I don't understand people like this and I never want to.
And I say that as a person that lives in a weird pub conversion where our kitchen is below the neighbours bedroom, and their bedroom kind of adjoins our lounge ceiling in one spot. Landlord of their house (they rent we own) removed the insulation for some reason-so in one tiny spot there is nothing but Carpet and a bit of plaster I suspect between us and them. It can be very loud as they have two little kids.
We have two dogs and two teens.
We live and let live.

I agree with the author.

@ScreamingCosArgosHaveNoRavens

And yet we still have an above inflation increase in the state pension, free tv licences (until recently available to even those wealthy pensioners) and an additional £75 per year towards pensioners hearing their homes, even those who draw million pound pensions! Ask who benefited the most from quantitative easing - it is those in the asset owning class - the majority of who are over 60. If we are venerating any group of the population it isn’t children and young people!

And the state is not encouraging people to have children- the birthrate in this country is static, the only reason it is not in decline is because of immigrants having a larger than average number of children and pushing the birth rate up!

The council’s duty of care for children ends at 16. At that age children cannot earn the adult minimum wage, they also can’t claim housing benefit. They have not attained adulthood in any meaningful sense - they cannot vote and they cannot hold a driving licence yet we expect them to be able to pay for themselves like adults without giving them the ability to do so.

“That’s just one of the consequences of wealth inequality in the country. It has nothing to do with the cultural veneration of children”.

Absolute nonsense. As I said above, we aren’t cutting the state pension or reducing the benefits available for those over 65. The majority of families in poverty are those in work - successive governments are happy to exacerbate wealth inequality by targeting the “just about managing families” but giving tax breaks to the elderly (cutting the rate of capital gains tax for example) and the very wealthy - both core conservative voter bases. There is no veneration of children in this country. None.

We don’t have an overpopulation problem in the UK. We have a demographic crisis - at present every retired person is supported by two working people. In ten years this will fall to 1.5 working people and continue to fall. We do not have enough young people and children to make up the working age population and we will have to see a huge rebalancing in this country to address its

I did think that letter writer was particularly insensitive and unreasonable. Everything he described was normal everyday noise and by no means unreasonable. Really, the fault lies in buying a house/choosing to rent one with such thin party walls - they could just have easily have found themselves next to an equally or more noisy adult.

I don't feel we have a child worshipping society, we have a money worshipping society.

For example, our city council worships the money that adult drinkers bring in to the economy and have slowly developed the city centre until it supports that industry to the point the city is not family friendly any more.

Other areas may choose to prioritise the money that families can bring it. It all depends really.

I read this on the Guardian this morning and thought it was very odd that they hadn't told the neighbours they were being disturbed by the baby crying.

Surely that's the first thing you'd do - not write an anonymous letter to a national newspaper!

Such a British thing to do....complain in a paper and hope your neighbour reads it.

we aren’t cutting the state pension or reducing the benefits available for those over 65

The state pension age is going up and up, so we most certainly are reducing benefits for those over 65.

The council’s duty of care for children ends at 16. At that age children cannot earn the adult minimum wage, they also can’t claim housing benefit.

You are proving my point by saying this - once children move into the category of being young adults, they cease to benefit from child-veneration.

giving tax breaks to the elderly (cutting the rate of capital gains tax for example) This isn't a 'tax break for the elderly' - it's a tax break for the wealthy! Wealthy individuals will include those who are parents. It has absolutely nothing to do with attitudes towards children.

n additional £75 per year towards pensioners hearing their homes, even those who draw million pound pensions!

£75 per year pales into insignificance beside all the money that is lavished on parents and children. Free prescriptions for the pregnant and their children - not means tested. Free dentistry - not means tested - the cost of state education (not means tested) - the cost to the NHS of caring for a pregnant woman (not means tested) - the cost of maternity pay (not means tested).

£75 per year pales into insignificance beside all the money that is lavished on parents and children

What is all this money being lavished because i certainly havent seen any of it!

in our house the easy way is to put one (of our many ) bookcases there or a wardrobe - or move or for goodness sake complain to the builder -their the ones who built the tacky flats/houses etc! I bet your neighbours love your music or tv or noisy love making or your late night socializing!

What is all this money being lavished because i certainly havent seen any of it!

See the examples in my post. And if you can't have children naturally, the NHS will even fund IVF.

DC2 was colic for 9 months and in that time I hardly went out of the house for this exact reason. I didn't know when he was going to have a melt down, who he would annoy and when he did have one, there was nothing I could do to pacify him (nothing worked). From the moment they are born you are judged as a parent on your child's behaviour. If only they came with a manual & a remote control....