Aibu to think that my kids aren’t coming back?

[SeaOfDespair]

I had my girls removed last month and it’s been a very traumatic experience. My family are so far away, my friends have dwindled away and I’m stuck looking at these 4 walls.

I’m seeing a private child psychologist and doing some work with him. He understands how harsh the system can be. I’m doing 2 different parenting courses online. I’m paying for all of this myself and has been a bit of a struggle recently.

My solicitor just tells me to go along with whatever they want. I’ve ticked one thing off the list, but they’re not forthcoming with starting their own assessments. Social worker is either sick, or can’t be bothered.

My youngest has arrived to contact with bruising to her face 4 times. She is cruising, but never managed to be bruised within my care. My elder one seems sort of happy, but is having a lot of tantrums and isn’t able to communicate with me.

From them wanting to keep them at home on an order, their original intentions until the court hearing, to pretending I don’t exist. They didn’t even turn up to the meeting last week. No apology given. No notification of cancellation.

From a case of closing ranks to keeping the case open, it never did surprise me that they applied for a court order. My social worker’s reasoning? I don’t agree with their concerns, so there needs to be a care order.

Am I being unreasonable to think I don’t stand a chance in hell of getting them back, if they’re not willing to even bother working with me?

@Cailleachian I think you have summarised things beautifully.

I was physically abuse and was actually neglected. My parent assured them that what I was saying was untrue and made excuses for my injuries. I first ended up homeless at 16 and social services couldn’t understand the reason why I didn’t just go home. I was literally left with nowhere to go. Ended up in the toilets of a railway station. I went to a “supported accommodation” type hostel a couple of weeks later and although it was awful, at least I could do my A Levels, which I worked very hard at.

and in the same post....

I was discouraged from going home to the area where my nice family live. That would have been brilliant for the girls, they would have loved it.

OP, I believe every word you say. The ss are discriminating against based on you having aspergers and being a single mother.

I'm sure there were some well founded concerns, such as messiness and your dd's developmental delay, but I believe you are at heart a good parent.

Surely it is more damaging for your DC to be apart from you? You seem genuinely concerned for your DC, and sw seem to have put you at the bottom of the shite pile.

Keep on doing what you're doing wrt parenting courses, counselling and housing. Keep pushing for assessments for your dd. Get as much support and advice as possible for your DDs SEN. Tell ss you would like their support to do the above, but ask only where necessary, they need to see you doing stuff for yourself.

Please do keep your home clutter and dirt free. Store or give away some soft teddies, etc. Just do it, if it means getting your DC back.

OP
Read Wilma’s posts
You do not get to set the agenda or the rules. You must follow the steps SW require and you must show that clearly.

It’s like taking an exam
It doesn’t matter if you know the information
It doesn’t matter if other people know you know the information
It doesn’t matter if you tell the examiner you know the information
It doesn’t matter if you have the information written in notebooks

You only pass the exam if you write down, the correct answers on the exam paper in the time required.

You may be in a better situation now but as Wilma has set out you need to formally demonstrate that to the SW in writing. Set out that you understand they were concerned about particular issues (you don’t have to state they were right - you are acknowledging their perception) and that you are addressing that concern in the following ways...

Look, there really is a problem with SS in many cases. Some social workers mean well but are overworked, under-trained and unsupported. Plenty are doing their best despite high caseloads and lack of funding. But social work, like all the caring professions and all those that confer some sort of authority, does attract arrogant bullies who get off on having power to enforce compliance and punish people for their 'attitude' ie they don't cower and refuse to accept that they are feral peasants who need to learn to obey. If OP fell foul of one such officious cunt, then there may well have been some closing of ranks (either because the others are too stressed and overworked to investigate what's going on, or because they themselves are a bit scared of the bully and what might happen if they stand up for a parent rather than going along with the company line.)

@ReanimatedSGB social workers are well trained and have a better understanding of parenting in a broader context because they see it every day. Most people only have their own patents to go by as an example and from what OP says, she has had a poor example. This bullshit about power and authority speaks loudly about your own issues.

OmniversalsTapdancingTadpole
I read that as her family who brought her up were as described but she has other nice extended family who live elsewhere

@SeaOfDespair

What explanations have been given for the bruising on your youngest child's face?

@Cailleachian - Do you not think it is likely that the OP is purposefully leaving things out/skimming over the details, and that is why your summary seems so skewed?
9not a social worker, but have been involved in safeguarding cases) concerns about finances/no curtains etc tend to mean that there are concerns that the parent is misusing family money, i.e spendign it all on alcohol/drugs/gambling, letting a partner spend the child benefit on a new xbox for himself etc.IT's not the fact that there are not curtains (we don't have curtains everywhere!) it's the fact that the OP isn't putting effort into making a nice home for her children, and (i imagine she gets a reasonable amount in benefits) is not spending money on things for the children that you would expect a parent to do, a jigsaw and a building block set from a charity shop etc.

The bar for a 'messy house' is VERY high. I've been in homes that I've been unwilling to sit down in as they were so dirty/messy with young children in, and it hasn't been a problem as the parent is clearly trying their best to provide a decent home and keep the kids clean. If poor hygiene/messiness causes problems for the children, severe nappy rash from not bveing changed frequently, no room to play due to hoarded rubbish etc, then this would be an issue.

Also, as sad as it is to say, the trauma from a separation depends on a good attachment with the parent. If one hasn't been developed, for example through poor eye contact and not being spoken to/cuddled then children are often so bothered by the separation. I've seen neglected children absolutely flourish ion foster care, where they can just be children and have someone brush their hair/keep them clean/give them a lovely dinner. It's not as black and white as : children should NEVEr be removed due to their attachment. Neglect is a form of child abuse, and can't be tolerated. Children's rights trump their parents rights.

Do you not think it's quite likely OP is giving a sanitised version of events?

Look, there really is a problem with SS in many cases. Some social workers mean well but are overworked, under-trained and unsupported. Plenty are doing their best despite high caseloads and lack of funding.

This is all true, but means that social services are LESS likely to intervene, due to high caseloads, poor funding etc. The bar for children being taken into care is extremely high, and various agencies have to agree it is in the children's best interests to remove.

SGB
Even if you are right how is your post going to help the OP get her children back.

If she can go to any review or hearing with a clear list of what she understands the SW concerns to be and how she is addressing them then it puts the pressure back on the SW. It also gives a face saving way out for SW in that they can say that their “justified” concerns have now been addressed so it was a successful intervention and the DC are no longer at risk.

*not bothered by the seperation

Also, sorry to bring it up, but look at the recent child murders in sheffield.

Siblings from a terrible , abusive, background had 6 children, their house looked a state on photos I've seen in the newspapers, and social services had only just started to initiate proceedings for removal after one of the older children was accused of abusing another child (disclaimer: read that int he daily mail

That's how high the bar is.

I would look into getting an advocate for all your meetings with social workers in the future op.
Also as others have suggested going to mencap and other charities for help on this.

I work alongside social workers, some I like. Some are on a power trip who will screw everyone over to cover themselves. Because of this, most places now only want communication via email or letter for evidence and all meetings have the minutes recorded. Is it possible for you to do this? Atleast then you have everything In writing, they can't deny you this either.

What have the FC said about your daughters development?

Is it possible she is not ASD and that you could use support in your parenting and assist in her development.

If they've noticed a significant change to her in the new setting it could explain why they are disagreeing with your continued pushing for a diagnosis that isn't needed.

@Glacecherrychops

So what you are saying is that it is more likely that the OP is lying and that actually she is spending her "reasonable amount on benefits" on drugs and drink, that her home is filthy and her children arent really bothered by her absence, than that social work have neglected her childrens' needs and done active damage to their wellbeing.

Its possible I guess, but I doubt it.

It's not evenly applied though is it?

There is no point saying "That's how high the bar is" when how SS react is completely uneven across the country. Even if there are standard tests people are overworked, negligent and over-zealous at times. There are numerous cases where they have been over-zealous and at the other end of the scale have been negligent in their duties. We just don't know in the OP's case as we only have her words to judge by.

I really feel for you SeaOfDespair. It must be awful to have your children taken from you, I can't even imagine it.

I hope you don't take this the wrong way because I mean it kindly, but your post and comments seem to be absolutely full of conversations which don't quite make sense and people mysteriously taking against you.

I think it's probably more likely that you're seriously struggling to understand what's going and to communicate effectively with professionals - probably because of your autism.

Please try to find someone to attend meetings with you so that someone else can hear what is being said and help you to understand.

If you can't do that then I think the email suggestion is a good idea. After every meeting email everybody with your minutes from the meeting. Include what was said and what action you are going to take. Then hopefully then can correct anything that you've misunderstood and there is a paper trail of you agreeing to make changes and following through.

Good luck

AlpineSnow

^OmniversalsTapdancingTadpole
I read that as her family who brought her up were as described but she has other nice extended family who live elsewhere^

The nice extended family that appeared not to step in when the op was 16 and homeless?

OP fwiw I believe you. you have come across so eloquently on this thread, with such great patience that im truly puzzled as to why all these professionals havent seen that. It seems so far that you have done alot that they have asked of you. It could be that the children are very young and not yet talking, so they are being extra cautious? I'm not sure. Please keep strong. I hope it all works out for you.

@Cailleachian

Why would you doubt it?

It's an unimaginable amount of work and stress instigating care proceedings to have a child removed. You have to go to court etc, its hundreds of hours of work. Why would a social worker or health visiotr go into a home where there are no problmes, make some up and go through the whole, draining and dreadful process to cause harm to well cared for children, when they have loads of cases that they can't intervene enough due to lack of funding/staff.

It makes no sense whatsoever, and just sounds like conspiracy theory bullshit from people who have a vested interest in calling social workers 'evil'.

social workers are well trained and have a better understanding of parenting in a broader context because they see it every day
They are also over worked, have ridiculous deadlines to make to keep the numbers up, mountains of paperwork, to many cases.
On top of it all they are terrified of messing up and making the wrong decision after baby P.
OP do everything they ask, if they tell you there is a problem needing fixing, agree and do it.
Your DC are their priority, you need to work
I wish you the best.

Your strength is in writing OP, and all the things you have said on this thread about the actual practical things you do for your dc.

Those things you need to write down and circulate by letter/email (with acknowledgment of delivery, like proof of posting or email notifications)

Confirm in writing all the things you have done to keep your dc safe, clean and loved.

I know someone who left her baby to cry relentlessly whilst she tidied and cleared her house, I went in to cuddle the baby, I just couldn't bear it! I'd assumed she was struggling or something had happened,but no, a few weeks old the baby was in the middle of the floor (on an activity mat) crying, sobbing and she explained she'd got to finish her cleaning up! Immediately I picked up the baby she started to settled. Her older DC didn't walk, or talk at two +

Whenever I'd seen the older toddler she'd been sat in a buggy/on floor with a phone in her hand playing on a game or watching YouTube videos.

I didn't see any signs of interaction. They all looked extremely clean and tidy and well fed.

She also had an abusive ex.

Without hearing the actual written testimonies, by stating the simple things, like how often you bath, how much you enjoy your interactions with them, frequent trips to the park, etc, lovingly tucking them in at night, fun at bathtime, and that you have moved away from the abusive ex and he's subsequently lost interest. I also know someone in a similar place to you wrt being under scrutiny for removal of dc, her ex has been to her home where the dc are and shes been beaten again (after fleeing - she's terrified of her ex and terrified of ss taking her dc).

I also know of cases where dc and dms are reported by abusive ex's and SS don't seem to be explicit about claims made against the dm by third parties, and are not allowed to reveal 'data protected' as in reports submitted by third parties.

Contact Family Rights Group, who exist specifically to support families dealing with SS, to ensure you have someone present at every meeting, that you are meeting basic levels of parenting, and that every word said is minuted and challenged if incorrect.

They exist exactly for your situation because so many families have had dc removed without good cause, and yet others have dc die because of dangerous perpetrators.

They know how to deal with SS and will guide you to ensure all is documented and challenged.

AFAIK its free/charity.

If you have an abusive ex, anything is possible sadly. Manipulative perps are believed over women often, and vexatious reporting is a common tactic of a perp.

There is also a charity that run a support service for women without their dc. I'll try to find a number and link for you.

Your writingnis your strength, set out your challengss to all they claim with the practical ways which knock down their claims, each and every one. Just like you have said on here, i.e. you require to see actual written reports of dirty dc signed and dated by the person making this claim.

Request in writing any evidence they have for their claims, and knock them down one by one.

The problem is their meetings, undocumented. They can say and assert anything they want and remain unaccountable. You need copies of any minutes and then you can set about refuting them with all the written evidence you have put here on your thread. Family Rights Group will guide you also with this.

I agree - you can get your kids back, but you need to change your mindset.

Work with them, agree with what they say and make the changes they are asking. Get a friend or trusted person to come with you and explain that your ASD can mean you don't always communicate what you want to.

Be honest withyourself about how well you are coping. BEing a single parent to two kids is loads of work, and it is hard to keep on top of things, keep things tidy etc. Accept help and support as much as you can.

I'm assuming you are not in contact with the children's dad, and he has been violent/abusive to you (as you were in a refuge)?
If one if their concerns is you still seeing him/being in the relationship when there is a risk to the children/risk of DV (you haven't mentioned this, but this is often the case) then it will be viewed very poorly if you are still trying to have a relationship, and will seriously impact your ability to get your children back.

I wondered how long before baby P was raised.

This is one alone, one case where a mother was involved, and huge deal was made of it.

This is happening daily to dc in dv perpetrated by men, and dc are being murdered, yet baby P?!

The interesting thing about baby P is that one of the ways his mother covered up the abuse is by covering him with chocolate to cover the bruises. So him being dirty was not an issue.