Aibu to think that my kids aren’t coming back?

[SeaOfDespair]

I had my girls removed last month and it’s been a very traumatic experience. My family are so far away, my friends have dwindled away and I’m stuck looking at these 4 walls.

I’m seeing a private child psychologist and doing some work with him. He understands how harsh the system can be. I’m doing 2 different parenting courses online. I’m paying for all of this myself and has been a bit of a struggle recently.

My solicitor just tells me to go along with whatever they want. I’ve ticked one thing off the list, but they’re not forthcoming with starting their own assessments. Social worker is either sick, or can’t be bothered.

My youngest has arrived to contact with bruising to her face 4 times. She is cruising, but never managed to be bruised within my care. My elder one seems sort of happy, but is having a lot of tantrums and isn’t able to communicate with me.

From them wanting to keep them at home on an order, their original intentions until the court hearing, to pretending I don’t exist. They didn’t even turn up to the meeting last week. No apology given. No notification of cancellation.

From a case of closing ranks to keeping the case open, it never did surprise me that they applied for a court order. My social worker’s reasoning? I don’t agree with their concerns, so there needs to be a care order.

Am I being unreasonable to think I don’t stand a chance in hell of getting them back, if they’re not willing to even bother working with me?

@NotSuchASmugMarriedNow1

Why do you need curtains if you have kids. I didn't have any in my old flat because I never got round to it. Didn't effect my kids in the slightest. Not everyone's houses/windows are overlooked.

I agree that SS are overrun and they can make mistakes, however I also agree with another poster who said you are skimming on details at best and purposely ignoring bits at worst.

You described the house they lived in as 'a little messy' and then went on to say it had rising damp, mould, no curtain rails (and presumably no curtains) or shelving and you didn't know how to deal with these yourself so asked SS for help in putting up curtain poles and shelves. That should be something an independent adult can do. It shouldn't require support.

Your application for another house was suddenly taken away and you hint at it all being some bigger plot.

Your daughter needed to go to specialist appointments and you actually asked SS about money for a taxi. SS shouldn't be involved in these appointments, in making sure children go. To get to that place in the first instance means that there must be concerns around you making it.

You have described 3 homes that you have lived in with your three year old, at least. The home before women's aid, women's aid refuge and the mould ridden house. You have then moved again and looked at moving a further time. That is not a stable environment for a child.

You talk about paying for parenting courses. It seems as though these are online. Are they accredited? Have you been asked to do them? Or is this you doing something to say you've done something?

You also make yourself out to be the victim and nothing is your fault, ever. You were asked to leave the refuge because of someone else's complaints, that were apparently unwarranted. You've had 3 HVs and only one has been 'okay', the rest are against you. You've had 3 solicitors, complaint's about them. Complaints about tenancy support and SW because they wouldn't put up shelves and curtain rails when you should be able to do that too. Complaints about the cost or everything.

You write well but you are failing to acknowledge anything you could have done, could still do, to help. Instead everyone is a bastard and against you.

Math anxiety, thank you. Op you picked out out and fixated on a small detail in my post. Math has eloquently described why this may be giving the wrong message back to ss. That's why I suggested you step back and take time to reassess your approach.

I think a major part of the problem is that SS are not competent to deal with a parent who is neurodiverse, particularly a mother with Aspergers. ASD in woman is still not very well understood, and there is a likelihood OP is being punished because she isn't 'nice' ie she does not come across as humble and compliant in the face of condescending bullshit.

I agree with all the PP who have advised getting someone NT with awareness and understanding of ASD to come with you to meetings.

I keep seeing this taxi thing come up. The sw brought up that conversation. She offered, so I accepted the ‘help’. She said I demanded them, when she brought the conversation up herself and I told her not to worry about it. This is exactly the same sort of thing that they say.

As for the house ages ago, I couldn’t drill through the concrete. I tried various masonry drill bits. I got there in the end, which a load of cracked concrete. I didn’t want to ask for support with it, nor did I ever ask SS. This again is exactly like them, you follow what you’re told, you are informed such an agency can’t help, then you get slagged off for it.

I’ll have a look at mencap. I’m absolutely doubtful I can get someone that quickly. Even a 3 month wait would mean the end of the court case.

1. I left the refuge myself, because it was poorly controlled. I didn’t get kicked out, but thank for jumping to your own conclusion.

1. I didn’t actually apply for another house, the offer was withdrawn. There’s a difference, do you understand the homeless system? I never hinted at it being a bigger plot. Why would you even think that? How could it even be a bigger plot? What?

1. Well yeah, when health visitors treat you like absolute pond life, they’re not actually being supportive. When they base their opinions on the one I made a complaint against, then that’s hugely unfair. There isn’t any need for racism. She shouldn’t have been offensive.

1. A good amount of legal aid solicitors are piss poor. You don’t have to fight too hard when you’re automatically getting the money. My 2nd didn’t give me any advice at all, she just said that I’d be ok.

1. How am I supposed to know what to do? I’m not a mind reader. I’ve done the psychological assessment. The other 2 require ss, which they are dragging their feet about and I keep asking when they’re going to start.

Sailorcherries makes a reasonable comment.

It must be very hard having your children removed. It’s sad it came to that but...
The children’s welfare has to be the primary consideration and nothing you have said focus’s on their needs but remains firmly in dismissing what sounds like valid concerns.
Children need security and stability but also need the basics of a safe environment, reasonable food, cleanliness, physical warmth. You don’t seem able to offer this.
Children need a reliable and competent adult who takes responsibility for their welfare. You appear to abdicate responsibility at all points and continue to blame everyone but yourself.
You even have one child on a CP plan and decide another is a good idea.
I’m really sorry but you don’t sound ready to be a good parent who puts the children first.

There is no responsibility taking in any of this. They needed you to fix some of these problems yourself. And yes the services sound like they were all working against you but they still needed you to take responsibility (even if it wasn't your fault). So they needed to come to the property which was faulty (damp, mould, etc.) and see that despite those issues, you were keeping on top of the housework and had come up with methods of coping with the other issues (putting nets or a blind up when you couldn't get curtains, getting storage boxes to put the items in to keep them dry and safe, that kind of thing). Things which would reasonably be your responsibility, like not needing a taxi to get to an appointment. It all builds a picture of somebody who is so busy pointing the finger that They cannot seems their part in it. I imagine the picture they saw was a very different one being painted on this thread, and that while not all of that was avoidable or necessarily your fault (inadequate housing, lack of social housing, cuts to social services, benefit cuts, cuts to agencies and support, etc.) that they wanted to see you managing as best you could in those circumstances not just blaming them and everybody else. They (wrongly or rightly) wanted you to do what they had asked, they told you the hoops and not only did you fail to jump through those hoops (cleaning the house, psychometric testing, regularly accessing support services) you failed to do any of the other things expected of you. They don't just want to see a child with additional needs playing with a puzzle in a messy, cramped, unsuitable home, they want to see that child regularly attending nursery and social opportunities and groups. They want to see a pattern of attended appointments, everything from regularly getting baby weighed, to GP, dentist, and specialist appointments, and without their input. Off your own back. Are you doing a proper in person parenting course? Because I imagine that online ones might just be eating your money/time for no pay off. Have you had any counselling for your own difficult upbringing?

Why’s that? I’m the only one who’s been pushing for a diagnosis for her. I’m the only one who actually gives a shit and doesn’t play games. I’m the one who tucked my kids in at night and loved them more than anyone else could. I’m the one who given them balanced meals. Bathed them every day. Took them to the park.

If I was such a bad mother, why couldn’t they tell the truth? Why wasn’t the referral telling the truth? If I was a bad mother, there would be some actual evidence, wouldn’t there?

I am so sorry for everything you are going through.

I could not even imagine the pain of losing your children and not seeing them everyday.

I honestly think England has turned into a nanny state where parents have no say over their children, in essence our children are not ours they are the governments. You do not see this in any other country abroad and i should know as i live abroad.

Yes i can understand if there is real abuse or neglect, but unfortunately most cases you hear about the SS really abuses their power.

I honestly think England as a country is going to shit in SO many ways.

Praying for you that you get your children back.

SS won't tell you what to do. The point is that they are looking for a parent who can do what needs to be done without having to be told. If you need hand holding every step of the way then they can never close the case. You have to be able to do the basics, provide a safe warm home, provide suitable clothing and food, ensure basic hygiene needs are met, doctors appointments, dentists etc. If you can not do those without the input from ss then you are not in the right place to parent.

It sounds like your life with the dc has been chaotic, that can be very damaging to children. Instead of thinking about what ss want you to do you need to think about what the dc need, what they need to develop and flourish.

I had a non verbal 3 year old but I will hold my hands up and say that as a single parent I got out of the habit of talking so I just wasn't talking to her enough, she didn't hear enough conversation to pick it up properly. She's fine now, getting her to be quiet is the problem.

If you want them back OP, you’ve got to stop denying and minimising everyone’s concerns.

Make a plan.

List out every concern that’s been made against you and then write 3 steps you could take to show how you will address them, ie

1. The house is messy

* I will spend two weeks decluttering, and will take anything broken or no longer needed to the dump/charity (and do it!) * I will make a list of daily household jobs to keep me on track and put it on the fridge (ie Monday clean bathrooms, Tuesday hoover, Wednesday laundry etc)

1. The house is not a safe and warm environment

* I have now put curtains up at all windows * The damp problem has been treated * I will undertake to get all repairs done promptly in the future

1. My eldest daughter is under stimulated

* I have done xyz course and have learned the following methods. I commit to putting them in place for 15 minutes each day (or whatever) * I have cut down on soft toys and have sourced some more stimulating toys (try eBay or charity shops)

1. The children have been observed to be dirty.

* At a minimum, I will bath the children three times a week, on Mon/Thurs/Sat evenings, and more if needed. * In addition to this, they will have their faces washed, their teeth cleaned and their hair brushed every morning and evening. We will make this into a fun activity with a star chart to help us all stick to it.

1. There are concerns about the children diet.

* I have read up on good nutrition for children from the following websites... * I have learned the following recipes.... * I have done a meal plan for the week, please find attached....

And so on.

If you want them back, you have got to knuckle under and start consistently showing that you will work with them.

But I haven’t failed to do those things. I’ve literally tried my best. I struggle to keep a place spotless. It’s not an absolute pig sty. I’ve done everything I possibly can do. I do all that off my own back. I was the one who had to bloody fight for those appts anyway.

From your OP.

My social worker’s reasoning? I don’t agree with their concerns, so there needs to be a care order.

Your desire to disagree with their concerns is going to have to become less important than getting your children back, and quickly. I agree you need an advocate to take to meetings. Why did your friends drift away?

They’ve seen what’s happened in my case and are afraid of their kids being removed.

The truth doesn't matter. They have cast you as the villain and now you need to change the narrative. It's much easier to be cast as the good guy if you haven't already been the villain, but the way villains become good guys is by admitting that what they did before was wrong (and showing a distinct new course of action that is indisputable).

Can one of your nice family members not come and see you, give an objective opinion on what you have done so far? Are they really just sitting pretty 150 miles away, and have been for a month, letting you get on with it?

The thing is OP, social workers are generally looking for reason you are coping, as it’s far less hassle for them to keep the children at home with you.

I think you need to be honest with yourself here. Your children’s needs have to be met, and if they are your primary care giver they have to be met by you. It doesn’t matter what excuse/reason you have, if you aren’t keeping the house clean, keeping the children neat and well fed, getting them to nursery/appointments, providing them with suitable toys and warm, loving care then social services have to intervene, to protect the child.

I’ve just had a HV come round. I made sure I tidied up, cleared the pots that usually are left in the sink, got plenty of toys out, made sure the children were spotless and made sure to demonstrate what a great environment they had.
What happened on the original health visits? He’s are generally looking for reasons to ‘sign you off’ so they don’t have to worry/do anything else. Why didn’t they children have age appropriate toys? What did you have to ‘declutter?’ All the clutter in our house is children’s toys. What are the concerns over their diet? Why are you asking social services for help paying for things?

Someone who complains about all the people involved in their case is generally a sign they aren’t quite a ‘reliable narrator’.

As for the ASD aspect, whilst many, many people have ASD and have no issues with parenting, some do. Children need eye contact and interaction to develop. You may need extra support in meeting some of their needs due to your ASD, that’s not a critical. But saying it’s all lies and the SW is making it up doesn’t demonstrate an awareness of your limitations.

As for the people on here saying: ‘Social services are evil, you’ve done nothing wrong’ - you are making it LESS likely that OP will get her children back. She needs to reflect on what she needs to work on to convince SS that her children will have all their needs met in her care. Part of this is, yes, being compliant and working with them. OP going into meetings with a ‘you are all evil, I am a perfect parent and I’ve done nothing wrong ever’ attitude will just entrench the belief that she will not be able to change and meet their needs.

I am always shocked at these threads on Mumsnet.

We have known about attachment, seperation and loss in the psychosocial development of a child since the 1950s. Seperating a child under 5 from their primary caregiver is well known to induce emotional trauma in a child with effects that last well into adulthood.

The 1 year old is turning up at contact with bruising to the face and the 3 year old is demonstrating stress responses, and investigations into her additional needs have stalled. They have been separated from the only adult that they have known and the one who has legal responsibility for them for 18 months, seeing her only 4 times a week for a limited period in an institutional setting.

The social workers appear more concerned with points scoring (I paid for the taxi, etc) then properly investigating the cause of the elder child's lack of development, prolonging the trauma to the children and risking that they may suffer future trauma and loss while still young if the foster carer is unable to continue their employment.

Neglect is certainly going on here, but its not about curtains.

The social workers know all about attachment as well, obviously.

Taking a child into care is a last resort, where there is serious concerns for the child’s safety.

I imagine the taxi point is based in a concern that the OP is not managing her money well, which ties in with the lack of toys, poor diet and very poor living circumstances (rising damp, no curtains). In itself it’s not an issue, but paying for transport to a child’s medical appointment should be every parents priority, not something target ask for someone else to pay for.

SeaOfDespair, i feel that you would benefit from counselling. It may be that how you lived as a child environment wise may have been internalised and normalised by you, so that you are seeing things through your personal historical filter. Or that your past childhood home was so neglectful and unsafe that the home that you have now seems not so bad to you.

You sound articulate in writting, so maybe this is your best strength for communication. If so do everything by email, this will also give you a paper trail of proceedings. Inform the relevent agencies of this choice of communication and why. Always back up meetings with an email detailing the meeting, objectives and outcomes.

You need to start engaging in a positive manner with the people involved with this case. You may feel like everybody is out to get you, but have you concidered the possibility that they are not? It may be that they really are looking out for your dc and that they may really want to help you?

There is a disconnection between them and you, maybe you are reading them through your historic filter? They dont get you and you dont get them......

You need a person whom can act as an interpreter as well as an objective support person/note taker (advocate)

And another to help you explore these issues that you have in a safe and boundried environment (counselling)

I hope that things get easier for you and your dc, i wish you all well

Ps, it helps if you copy in all involved with this case to the emails, that way you are demonstrating transparency and you are keeping everyone in the loop.

OP you can believe you’re right till you’re blue in the face, and maybe you even ARE, but if you want your kids back you need to let that go and start listening to what you’re being told.

So what was the serious concerns about the childs safety?

Curtains dont make anything safer (and blinds are a known risk to young children). The children do not appear to have diseases associated with lack of hygiene. The younger child appeared to be developing as expected, so even if there had been a lack of stimulation at a young age that had impacted on the elder child, it would appear that had now been recified and the mother was pro-actively exploring how to gain support for her additional needs.

How does inflicting enormous trauma and loss on these children make them any safer. What is the risk to the children if they just walked away and never saw them again. The OP is not violent, regularly intoxicated, financially irresponsible or sexually abusive.

I think the risk is that the children might not be washed as much as is optimal, things might be a little chaotic at home, and the OP would experience stress and frustration at navigating childrens disability services that are being cut to the bone.

I still see that as preferable to the emotional trauma that social work have inflicted and a one year old child presenting bruising to the face on a weekly basis, at ongoing risk of losing their current caregiver, and seeing their primary caregiver for very small amounts of time in institutional settings.